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Bailing on sport route
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By Ian F.
From Phx
Apr 6, 2010

Kevin Burns wrote:
Would it be a good idea to carry a couple nuts or cheaper cams in case you need to bail from a sport route and would rather not be lowered on a single bolt ? Even if you aren't a complete expert in placing Trad gear I would think the extra redundancy can't hurt. It is your life and mine is worth more than the price of a nut/cam, etc.


Yes, absolutely!


Let me know where you plan on climbing too!


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By Dave Bohn aka "Old Fart"
Apr 6, 2010
Vintage anorexic sport climber shot

Ian F. wrote:
Let me know where you plan on climbing too!



Ladies and gentleman, sharpen your chisels.....


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By Jordan Ramey
From Calgary, Alberta
Apr 6, 2010
What was left of the rack when I topped out on the last pitch of Snake Dike on Half Dome.

don't use screwlinks. That just screws the next guy. Biners are the same price.


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By Brandon R.
Apr 6, 2010
TM

Yeah, leaving a screwlink is really inconsiderate. They rust, can be really hard to unscrew, and they get in the way of clipping. Just leave a 'biner. They don't really cost that much, and you'll acquire quite a few of them over the years.


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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Apr 6, 2010
Bucky

Brandon R. wrote:
Yeah, leaving a screwlink is really inconsiderate. They rust, can be really hard to unscrew, and they get in the way of clipping. Just leave a 'biner. They don't really cost that much, and you'll acquire quite a few of them over the years.


blah blah blah.

Quicklinks are a lot cheaper than any biner. Over the years, I think I have left maybe one or two links (a long time ago at that). However, I have probably removed a half dozen or more, and boy, what a hardship it was getting them off. You are not 'screwing' anybody. Unless you are on some uber obscure route, the quicklink will be pilfered long before it gets a chance to rust.


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By Brian in SLC
Apr 6, 2010
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch

J. Albers wrote:
blah blah blah. Quicklinks are a lot cheaper than any biner. Over the years, I think I have left maybe one or two links (a long time ago at that). However, I have probably removed a half dozen or more, and boy, what a hardship it was getting them off. You are not 'screwing' anybody. Unless you are on some uber obscure route, the quicklink will be pilfered long before it gets a chance to rust.


Fixed link on bolt at Stone Mountain, NC.
Fixed link on bolt at Stone Mountain, NC.


Stone Mountain, NC.

Leave a draw or a biner, if nothing else, as penance.

Cheers!


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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Apr 6, 2010
Bucky

Brian in SLC wrote:
Stone Mountain, NC. Leave a draw or a biner, if nothing else, as penance. Cheers!


Yes Brian, I saw that photo the first time you posted it. As I said above, I have not left a quicklink in many years (perhaps I should be working harder to get in over my head, eh?). However, during that time I have seen many quicklinks and I have never seen one look like that rusted link in your picture.

It takes quite a while (read years) for a link to end up like the one in your photo (if it didn't, half the anchors I know of would be a total mess). Thus, on any route that gets even an ascent or two a year, the link will be taken long before it makes a mess like the one in the photo. Thus, for those folks who are leaving bail gear because they can't get to the top, then a quicklink should be just fine.


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By Brandon R.
Apr 6, 2010
TM

J. Albers wrote:
blah blah blah. Quicklinks are a lot cheaper than any biner. Over the years, I think I have left maybe one or two links (a long time ago at that). However, I have probably removed a half dozen or more, and boy, what a hardship it was getting them off. You are not 'screwing' anybody. Unless you are on some uber obscure route, the quicklink will be pilfered long before it gets a chance to rust.


Okay my math olympiad friend. Let's say a cheap 'biner is $5 and a quicklink is $2. You say you've left about 2 quicklinks and taken about 6. That leaves you $8 in the black. If those were all 'biners, you'd be $20 in the black. Which is better economically for you?

A quicklink IS harder to get off a bolt than any carabiner. Especially if you're on lead and pumping out. I personally don't like having to clip a bolt with a quicklink underneath the draw.


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By Brian in SLC
Apr 6, 2010
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch

J. Albers wrote:
It takes quite a while (read years) for a link to end up like the one in your photo (if it didn't, half the anchors I know of would be a total mess).


Maybe in the dry desert of California, but, not in the Southeast. My bet is that link is less than two years old. Stuff rusts pretty quickly out there, which is why they went to the huge effort of placing those stainless longlife's.

Stuck quick links are a pain to remove, and, probably not super great to be clipping a biner over the top of. Make the bolt/hanger placement a bit less than optimal. If the hanger is at a crux (hence, the bail point...), then just being able to unclip a biner versus trying to unscrew a link probably would be the difference in a send versus hang. Might matter to someone.

If a link does get stuck and won't succumb to a wrench, then hauling a bolt cutter up to the crag would be a bummer.

I dunno. Just seems excessively obtrusive...given a few alternatives.


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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Apr 6, 2010
Bucky

Brandon R. wrote:
Okay my math olympiad friend. Let's say a cheap 'biner is $5 and a quicklink is $2. You say you've left about 2 quicklinks and taken about 6. That leaves you $8 in the black. If those were all 'biners, you'd be $20 in the black. Which is better economically for you? A quicklink IS harder to get off a bolt than any carabiner. Especially if you're on lead and pumping out. I personally don't like having to clip a bolt with a quicklink underneath the draw.


Yes, I don't like clipping a draw over the top of a biner/quicklink either; that is why you put your draw on UNDERNEATH the quicklink. No, its not hard to do on lead, even while onsighting. Economically I don't care. I never use bail gear I find for anything else than clipping my shoes to my pack.


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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Apr 6, 2010
Bucky

Brian in SLC wrote:
Maybe in the dry desert of California, but, not in the Southeast. My bet is that link is less than two years old. Stuff rusts pretty quickly out there, which is why they went to the huge effort of placing those stainless longlife's. Stuck quick links are a pain to remove, and, probably not super great to be clipping a biner over the top of. Make the bolt/hanger placement a bit less than optimal. If the hanger is at a crux (hence, the bail point...), then just being able to unclip a biner versus trying to unscrew a link probably would be the difference in a send versus hang. Might matter to someone. If a link does get stuck and won't succumb to a wrench, then hauling a bolt cutter up to the crag would be a bummer. I dunno. Just seems excessively obtrusive...given a few alternatives.


Brian, you do bring up a legitimate point. If you are in the southeast (rainy) or along the ocean (salty), then good judgement calls for leaving a biner. However, in any of the dry climates of say, California, Nevada, New Mexico, etc., I for one, do not mind cleaning up someones quicklink. I just clip a draw into the bolt underneath the link and then clean the link when lowering/rapping. Fair? I think so.


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By SW Marlatt
From Arvada, CO
Apr 6, 2010
wcp

Ed Wright wrote:
David A.: Seriously, DON'T re-use slings. Many years ago a British group tested slings (made of 1 inch tubular webbing) that had been used this way and found that pulling a rope through a sling just once damages the sling to half its strength.


Can you clarify? Are we talking about being lowered off slings (yikes!) or rapping off and then pulling the unweighted rope through the slings? I'd be very surprised if the latter would serious damage a new sling. Depends on how much ropes is out, how dirty the rope is, what kind of sling is being used, etc., etc. - but I've certainly seen, and used, a lot of rap slings in exactly this way.


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By Ed Wright
Apr 7, 2010
Magic Ed

SW Marlatt wrote:
Can you clarify? Are we talking about being lowered off slings (yikes!) or rapping off and then pulling the unweighted rope through the slings? I'd be very surprised if the latter would serious damage a new sling. Depends on how much ropes is out, how dirty the rope is, what kind of sling is being used, etc., etc. - but I've certainly seen, and used, a lot of rap slings in exactly this way.


According to this study, pulling an unwieghted rope just once through a sling made of one-inch nylon webbing reduced its strength to half!!


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By Crag Dweller
From New York, NY
Apr 7, 2010
My navigator keeps me from getting lost

i've had to break out a leatherman to unscrew a quick link that was on a bolt for only 7 days. i know it was only 7 days because i was belaying the girl who put it there. and, it was in Colorado.

i'm not saying quicklinks shouldn't be used. 'cause, i agree, it's not that hard to clip under one. but, they do seize quickly even in dry climates. and, they're not that much cheaper than an oval 'biner.


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By Marc H
From Lafayette, CO
Apr 8, 2010
The Cathedral Spires in RMNP, left to right: Stiletto, Sharkstooth, Forbidden Tower, Petit Grepon, The Saber, The Foil, The Moon & The Jackknife.

Only on Mountain Project could a thread about bailing off of a sport route turn into a multi-page shit-show. :)

IMO, if you're willing to climb several feet above a bolt, and risk taking a lead fall on it, you should be willing to lower off of one with a single non-locking 'biner. Preferably, using one you bootied from another route.

I agree that using rapid-links/quick clips/screw links to lower off of a sport route is way overkill.

Just doing my part to keep the shit-show alive.

--Marc


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By camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
Apr 8, 2010
You stay away from mah pig!

the stupid is strong in this thread. Here's my favorite solution for bailing off a single pitch sport route:


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By Cocoapuffs 1000
Apr 8, 2010

Ed Wright wrote:
David A.: Seriously, DON'T re-use slings. Many years ago a British group tested slings (made of 1 inch tubular webbing) that had been used this way and found that pulling a rope through a sling just once damages the sling to half its strength.


Can we have more details on this study?


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By AGParker
From San Angelo, TX
Apr 8, 2010

If it is a short route, you could lower off your highest draw, scramble to the top, set up a rappel, clean your draws, climb back up and collect any gear used to set up the rappel. I've had to do this before, but it would really only be worth the trouble if it is a short scramble to the top.


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By Jake D.
From Northeast
Apr 8, 2010

LOL folks who can't clip a draw under a screw link should really practice clipping better. it doesn't get in the way at all. if you are so pumped that you can't clip a freaking bolt you're probably not going to send either.

i've pulled at least 5-7 screw links off bolts at rumney, all by hand, all after i've finished the route and having clipped a draw under it. throwing a stubby adjustable wrench in the bag would solve any rusted ones you find if you live along the water or noticed one at your home crag. i do thank the booty gods for the wiregates, quick draws, lockers i've found the last few years though.

folks that are worried about lowering off one bolt is hilarious that you would risk falling onto one.

never left bail gear.. stick clipping to the top or rapping off a bolt is easy enough to do. (yea yea don't rap off a hanger.. but glue ins are no biggy and i've found that normal hangers can be done if they aren't too hacked up.. blah blah so unsafe mehh)


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By T-Bob
Apr 13, 2010

Amen,sing it Jake.

T.


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By Ian G.
From PDX, OR
Apr 13, 2010
Mens Crisis Center .12a

Marc H wrote:
Only on Mountain Project could a thread about bailing off of a sport route turn into a multi-page shit-show. :) --Marc


You don't spend much time on Supertopo do you? This is waaaay tame.... :)


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By Ed Wright
Apr 14, 2010
Magic Ed

Cocoapuffs 1000 wrote:
Can we have more details on this study?

I've still got all my old Mountain magazines at my summer home in Wisconsin. I'll look for the article but it won't be until June.


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By Darren B.
From Asheville, NC
May 13, 2010
Scenic view from the top of the second pitch.

Another question to add to the mix...

If I've led a climb that my second is unable to get up, which hasn't happened but I thought it'd be good to know what to do just in case, would the following solution be appropriate?

Have the second tie in to the closest bolt. I'd then pull the rope up and run it through the belay anchors and back down to the second. The second would then lower me down, cleaning gear as I go until I reached either the bottom of the climb or the next belay anchors. From there I'd tie off and lower him down, and then repeat that as necessary to get down.

I should add that when I was pondering this situation, I was at the belay anchors at the top of a 150' pitch with a 70 m rope.

It seems like I might be missing something vitally important in this setup.


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By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
May 13, 2010
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of Twist of Fate, Oak Creek Canyon. <br /> <br />photo: Blake McCord

Darren B. wrote:
Another question to add to the mix... If I've led a climb that my second is unable to get up, which hasn't happened but I thought it'd be good to know what to do just in case, would the following solution be appropriate? Have the second tie in to the closest bolt. I'd then pull the rope up and run it through the belay anchors and back down to the second. The second would then lower me down, cleaning gear as I go until I reached either the bottom of the climb or the next belay anchors. From there I'd tie off and lower him down, and then repeat that as necessary to get down. I should add that when I was pondering this situation, I was at the belay anchors at the top of a 150' pitch with a 70 m rope. It seems like I might be missing something vitally important in this setup.

um, maybe i missed something, but why not just lower the second bacl tp the belay/ground, and then rap?


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By Darren B.
From Asheville, NC
May 13, 2010
Scenic view from the top of the second pitch.

That's what I thought at first, too, but if we've got only one rope, then the 70m isn't long enough for me to rap back down, right?

db


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