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Bad Decision in RMNP

Original Post
Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883

Sport climbing is great but did we need this one:

mountainproject.com/v/color…

By Mav
2 days ago

CONDITION REPORT
Hello all,
this route was bolted by hand with a hand drill per RMNP guidelines.
The Xs will be cleaned.
The bolts will be camo'ed.
The route was approved by RMNP officials.
The bolting was discussed with many members of the climbing community.
The route is called Pushing 200.

By Eli Helmuth
From: Estes Park, CO
3 days ago
C'mon guys-
putting in bolts 2 feet off a popular trail in RMNP on a weekend in the middle of summer is a TERRIBLE IDEA!
Couldn't you find a rock AWAY FROM THE TRAIL for these antics...on a 40' wall?!?!
Some public opinion polls have ranked climbing 3rd, behind mining and forestry as the most destructive activities on our public lands...bolting off a very busy tourist trail only fosters this misconception.

By Charles Vernon
From: Tucson AZ
3 days ago
I totally agree with Eli. This route must have taken hours of loud hammering right next to a very popular tourist trail. Isn't this basically how bolting got banned in the Flatirons?

By Colin Simon
From: Boulder, CO
2 days ago

All the tourists that day seemed to be in awe, taking pictures, and not complaining.

A ranger visited us a couple of times and didn't have any problems.

By Allen Hill
From: FIve Points, Colorado and Pine
2 days ago
Bad idea.

By Mav
2 days ago
A lot of work was put into cleaning and bolting this climb, being a part of the climbing world I feel like establishing new routes is a fundamental part of the sport. If people really have trouble with a small ting noise of a HAND drill, then I don't know what to tell them. If there was opportunities for all trad, then bolting would obviously be unnecessary; but there wasn't, so there are bolts.

By dakotahills
2 days ago
"Guideline #1: don't be a jerk"
and furthermore this isn't RIGHT next to the trail, and so what if people see it!? Maybe it will encourage them to try something new. I'm pretty sure that for the 5 minutes of the hike that people could hear the hammering, they were probably pretty curious and intrigued.

By Doug Shepherd
From: Fort Collins, CO
2 days ago
Did you guys at least camo the hangers?
Bad idea.

By justin dubois
From: Estes Park
2 days ago
Wow, guys!
Those tourists were in awe alright, but not in the way you guys think....

By pat vernon
2 days ago
I saw this route the other day on the way to Sharkstooth. I don't get it, who is going to climb it? An hour hike from Glacier Gorge (whose parking lot is chronically full anyway, so tack on 20 mins in the shuttle) for one 50' sport route? Are you planning other routes on this wall? It is 20 feet from the trail, in a very high profile area, will probably only very rarely get done, and is frankly a bit of an eyesore with chalked x's and the whole nine yards; why was this put up? Loch Vale is not the Sport Park. The hangers were not camo'ed.

I know I know, guideline #1, but these are valid questions, do you plan on putting in more routes?

-Patrick Vernon

By cletus blum
2 days ago
I do realize that the climb is very close to the trail and will inherently attract some attention. I have walked up to the Loch Vale a few times just to turn around due to weather. The motivation to put a climb here was not to create a sport climbing wall but to have something to play on while in the area. The goal was not to offend anyone but to simply put up a new route for people to try while they were in the Loch Vale Area. When talking with the rangers they seemed to have no problems with the route, if they had we would have not put it up.

~Cletus Blum

By Kevin Craig
2 days ago
Uh, yeah. People will be inspired to try climbing for the first time on an 11b/c route? Verdict: Ego route. Penalty: Back to the gym, boyz.

- edit to remove last comment -

By Ryan Jennings
2 days ago
This is a question that should be discussed. Thousands of climbers have walked by this wall for years and we've all entertained thoughts of lines here. What held us back? We may have been lazy, thought bolts wrong, or thought the climb was just trivial. I would imagine most were on there way to a serious objective loaded with a full rack of cams looking for an adventure because that is what RMNP is about...adventure. It used to be that was what climbing was about...adventure.
Climbing has certainly changed, and this is a prime example of where we are headed if we don't discuss these matters. In RMNP, why do we need more "access to climbing"? We are surrounded by it, and there are many many walls with better access than an 1.5hr hike. Why do we need more bolts in an area surrounded by natural routes of any length you want?
I support the authors desire to establish a new route, but you will never truly feel what, I think many would argue, climbing is really about until you put the bolt gun away and simply climb. Bring a hand drill if you have to. It will force you to think about how important it really is that you put that hole in the rock. Study and search and find a new line that doesn't require a bolt every four feet. There are plenty out there, but you will have to be skilled and possibly bold. Climb from the ground up and feel your way. You will have to know how to downclimb. You may even have to learn how to hook! Talk about adventure and inspiration!
If you want to impress the tourists, let them see you hanging 400ft up a new route taking wippers off the roof your desperately trying to find a piece above. Seeing you whip then get back up and send will certainly inspire them.
I agree lame to bolt a short route, with a power drill, by the main trail, mark Xs, take photos of the drilling (I see this all the time, it's like posing with your cool car), and spray about it.
Don't get me wrong I've placed a few bolts too, but I always feel better when I don't and I understand the impacts I'm leaving behind and have thoroughly discussed the merit of doing such. The merits can only be decided upon in your own head, but I certainly hope in the future we aspire to develop more routes that push the "limits" of the sport rather than push the "number" of routes we have. Think about it!

By JPVallone
2 days ago

Your plan worked,

You have totally inspired the recreational hikers of RMNP, and tourists everywhere to start climbing. It was kind of a bummer, but I went up to wrestle all 40ft of this masterpiece but after the crowded shuttle and overcrowded trail on the way in. It was to my surprise, that all these folks on the bus with me were headed up to wrestle this proj as well. It sucked, I had to cue up, and there just wasn't enough room for all of us. I waited 45 minutes just to get my turn on this visionary stepping stone. I didn't even get a chance to send, there were so many people waiting to climb, we had to enforce a one hang rule and you're out.

I saw a whole family, grandparents and all, they were only going up to the lake for there picnic, some photos, and hopes of taking some photographs, but they actually brought there rack and draws all the way up so they too could do something else while up in the area.

Thanks for helping to fuel our sport and market to the less exposed folks who might never of climbed, now thanks to this beauty of a route, climbing numbers will sure explode. It's just crazy you only put one line in, if we had more there, we could accomodate so many others, and this could truly become a trail side social landmark.

P.S. Why didn't you just top rope it for something to do if you needed to climb it that bad? Was it that big of a deal that you needed to lead it?

P.S.S. I wonder why after generations and countless thousands of incredible climbers have walked past this over more years than I have been alive, has it never been bolted before? Why it took countless years and visionary sportos in 2010 to actually see this pebble's potential???

By Josh Janes
Administrator
2 days ago
They were in awe, because they've probably never seen something like that happening and it can be interesting to watch. There's a reason they've never seen that happening: it shouldn't have happened - not on a little pile of rock right next to the trail during hours when they are hiking there. Perhaps not ever.

You camouflage hangers at home in your garage - BEFORE you place them on the bolts and tap them in.

You remove the Xs the moment you start each hole - not a few days later.

Do you really want to bring more people - people you don't even know - into climbing? And is this really the way you want to do it?

And then, posting about it on Mountain Project before the route is even complete - picture and all?

Come on.

By Tom Halicki
From: Boulder, CO
2 days ago
Bad idea. Not very mature judgment.
By Bill Duncan
From: Jamestown, CO
2 days ago
60 feet tall = top rope. Why are bolts other than top rope anchors necessary?
By Andy Novak
From: Denver/Allenspark
2 days ago

Wow...just, wow. Good job guys, whoever you are, for putting up the most retarded route I have ever seen. What are your real names?

EDIT: In the future, stick to Boulder Canyon and STAY OUT OF THE PARK.

By Mav
2 days ago

Hello all,
this route was bolted by hand with a hand drill per RMNP guidelines.
The Xs will be cleaned.
The bolts will be camo'ed.
The route was approved by RMNP officials.
The bolting was discussed with many members of the climbing community.
The route is called Pushing 200.

By blakeherrington
1 day ago
There's a big difference between style and ethics.

These guys didn't leave any trash, fixed ropes, fixed draws, etc. They didn't use a power drill, or violate NPS laws. They strived to follow all explicit 'rules'. I think it's important that critics of the route realize this.

That being said, the style of the route isn't really in line with the area. Why not talk with some prolific locals to learn about a possible tradition of bolt-free TR climbing on this and other small, highly visible walls? If your goal is merely to develop some sport routes, there are thousands of potential bolted face climbs around that (although often not particularly high quality...) would satisfy that desire in a less-visible area, much closer to the road. If you want to establish new routes in RMNP, the potential is vast as well, but do so in the tradition of the area, not by turning trailside escarpments into Sport-Park simulators. It's great that folks put the time and money into developing sport climbs, and make the effort to comply with NPS Laws, but consider the possibility that such endeavors are best done in locations with a tradition of similar climbs.

If Mountain Project didn't exist, and this route wouldn't have been 'recorded' anywhere, would it still have been bolted?

By justin dubois
From: Estes Park
1 day ago
"When talking with the rangers they seemed to have no problems with the route, if they had we would have not put it up."...those Rangers don't have the slightest f'n clue about the ethics and traditions of climbing in RMNP.

By Doug Shepherd
From: Fort Collins, CO
1 day ago
In my opinion, Justin has it exactly right. Just because it isn't illegal, doesn't mean it follows with local ethics and tradition.

I talked with one of the route developers on the phone last night and tried to get this point across. I would really like to see them own up and remove the hardware on their own.

By pfwein
From: South Boulder
1 day ago
Eli H. wrote "Some public opinion polls have ranked climbing 3rd, behind mining and forestry as the most destructive activities on our public lands."

Do you have a link to those polls--I spent a bit of time trying to find them online and couldn't.
I don't have an opinion on the route one way or the other, but my experiences with non-climbing tourists is that they either don't care much one way or the other, or, more commonly, regard it as at least a mildly interesting activity (how do you get the ropes up there . . .).

Bolts seem to bother a certain sub-species of climbers. If you're one of the climbers (and sometimes I am), fine, but let's not pretend that you're somehow the defender of Ma, Pa, and Junior Tourist who are bothered by the bolts. Ma, Pa, and Junior couldn't care less.

By David A
From: Boulder, CO
1 day ago
Pfwein's got the right idea. I'm not going to get any deeper into this argument than that.

By Greg D
From: Colorado
1 day ago
EDIT COMMENT
Holy Fack! What were you thinking.

So, for those that have never been there:

Sunday, 3 am, we wake up to drive 2 hours to the Glacier Gorge parking lot to begin an amazing adventure into some of the most pristine and well-protected land in the country. After about an hour and a half of hiking in the dark, we shut off our headlamps. It is just barely light enough to see without them, though I'm still asleep. We are in a field of wild flowers, a crystal clear steam babbles near by, fresh pine is in the air, and I see a herd of elk grazing only 30 feet away. Then, smack dap in front of me I see what appears to be a sport route. What the fack. I must be dreaming, or having a nightmare. This is so bizarre. A sport route complete with shiny bolts and chalk right in front of me only a few feet from the trail in one of the most beautiful places on earth.

This is not a sport/trad thing or a "you bolted my crack". This is just the most inappropriately placed routes EVER.

1. Placing non-camo'd bolts=bad.
2. Planning on camo'ing after the fact=bad.
3. Leaving chalked x's=bad.
4. If climbed regularly, it will get chalked up=bad.
5. Claiming it was to inspire others. Umm, an 11b/c route in the pristine national forest to inspire= retarded.
6. Having RMNP officials approval means nothing. They simply have to consider whether you are violating any laws, rules, and regs of the park. Not whether this is a good idea or bad one=bad.
7. You already toproped this one. Then bolt it?=bad.
8. First ascents are considered courage, talent, vision, thoughtful consideration, and art. Most first ascentionists are very proud of their work and own it. Why is your full name not listed here?=very bad.

This route is the most poorly thought route ever simply based on location. If you must place a sport route in RMNP, there are miles and miles of huge rock walls off the beaten path. Some may make perfect sport crags. This is not one of them.

Please consult with officials about the regs on removing hardware and do so right away. This would be=good.

By Chris Beh
16 hours ago
Bolting a route right over the trail is short sighted and way too high profile. Look at the kerfuffle (cool German word meaning, roughly, a temptest in a teapot) going on here. If you put up a route off the trail, none of this conversation would be happening.

There is an amazing amount of cragging potential in Loch Vale for short, bolt-protected climbs. If it was an area where a power drill could be used at will, there could be hundreds of routes up there. I don't really care if a route is done ground up or top down as long as it is a good route and tastefully bolted, i.e. no bolts by safe gear placements. Hand drilling is naturally self-limiting regarding over-bolting.

To the energetic boys who put up this route, go find a crag off the trail up there where you can do your work in privacy. It will save you a lot of scolding.

By Malcolm Daly
From: Boulder, CO
14 hours ago
Nice job, guys. Not only have you totally hacked the traditional ethics of RMNP alpine, you've also introduced the trashy, naming ethics use at the worst of the sport climbing piles. Golden Shower Wall? Classy.... You should be so proud.
By EDGE
13 hours ago
What a terrible decision to bolt a route here! The best solution would be for the FAists to remove the bolts themselves and repair the holes, before someone else does it and starts a mean spirited ethics war in the Park that would only serve to paint climbers in a bad light. This route is definitely not worth having that happen. Let them keep the route name for the resultant top rope if they want to.

By dakotahills
11 hours ago
There seems to be a lot of ego involved here with these comments, and it makes you all look like a bunch of climbing gangsters. I'm sure the forefathers of climbing would be proud of the bullying taking place here. LIVE AND LET LIVE.

By ryanhd
10 hours ago
Everyone who has been posting here and getting all bent out of shape about this climb needs to go re-read PFWEIN's post and reflect upon the truth of that statement. Hikers, rangers, tourists, campers - these people neither chop bolts nor care AT ALL about them being there. I would also venture to say that 90% of the climbing community is ambivalent as well.

Why do a few people think they can go around threatening the FAists with things like "remove the bolts, before someone else does," simply because it doesn't align with their notion of what climbing is supposed to be about? Climbing is a personal experience and everyone is allowed to manifest that experience how they so choose. If someone else's experience (i.e., sport climbing in RMNP) isn't to your liking, that's fine, but don't be a bully and threaten to chop down their bolts. This form of bigotry is no different than any other.

If you want the bolts down, go about it the right way. If you want your unspoken "ethics and traditions" to be legitimized and protected within the park, take actual proactive steps towards making that happen. Talk to local officials, form an action committee that can approve or disapprove new fixed hardware in the Park, and arrive at a consensus together. In the mean time, realize that this climb was put up in total compliance with RMNP regulations and guidelines, and that as of now, it has as much of a right to be in the Park as any other route.

By Scotty P
8 hours ago
We've dealt with this exact scenario before, and the FAists need to remove the bolts ASAP. Despite RyanHD's assertion that hikers and other recreationalists do not mind seeing bolts and chalk on cliffs and rocks, the truth is they do. And they are vocal, and can become active in speaking out against it.

Any visitors to the area, be they hikers, rangers, recreationalists or climbers, have a right to not have their own "personal experience" diluted by seeing some chalk and metal all over an otherwise pristine rock or sector.

While everyone can agree that climbing will be allowed for a long time in RMNP, acts like this one can cause access issues for specific sectors, rocks, cliffs or hardware.

There is plenty of FA glory available in RMNP that is not directly off a popular hiking trail. I think it prudent of the FAists to remove the hardware, repair the rock, and use their tools to take advantage of the many other opportunities in RMNP.

By Andy Novak
From: Denver/Allenspark
7 hours ago

Hey, Ryan, you joined this site 4 hours ago. Much like the Boy Scouts who put up this nightmare of a route, you have no idea what you're talking about. Look at the people who have commented; Helmuth, Daly, Hill, these are pillars of the local community. "Golden Shower Wall?" Really? You guys have a lot to learn. Like I said above, atrocities like this belong in Boulder Canyon. Man up, and take out the bolts.

By Colin Simon
From: Boulder, CO
6 hours ago

The bolts have been camo'ed, and the chalk Xs cleaned.

By morkel
From: Colorado
2 hours ago
Not good enough. Remove the bolts and this whole post. What a debacle.

By Ben Cassedy
From: Denver, CO
2 hours ago
"If you want the bolts down, go about it the right way. If you want your unspoken "ethics and traditions" to be legitimized and protected within the park, take actual proactive steps towards making that happen. Talk to local officials, form an action committee that can approve or disapprove new fixed hardware in the Park, and arrive at a consensus together. In the mean time, realize that this climb was put up in total compliance with RMNP regulations and guidelines, and that as of now, it has as much of a right to be in the Park as any other route." - ryanhd

Yeah, that's the ticket. Let's get park officials involved because we can't settle our silly squabbles ourselves. They will surely look upon us with favor and be honored to adjudicate our disputes.

Isn't voicing legitimate criticism over the route an 'actual and proactive step' towards a solution? Especially when it's done on an open forum in direct dialogue with the bolters? Isn't there already an overwhelming consensus that this route was a bad idea? Why do I feel like I'm talking to an 18-20 year old?

Speaking of that, how old are you guys who bolted this route? This thing has juvenile-male-testosterone written all over it.

And I say all of this as an avid sport climber.

By Greg D
From: Colorado
13 minutes ago
EDIT COMMENT
ryanhd said:

"Everyone who has been posting here and getting all bent out of shape about this climb needs to go re-read PFWEIN's post and reflect upon the truth of that statement. Hikers, rangers, tourists, campers - these people neither chop bolts nor care AT ALL about them being there. I would also venture to say that 90% of the climbing community is ambivalent as well.

Why do a few people think they can go around threatening the FAists with things like "remove the bolts, before someone else does," simply because it doesn't align with their notion of what climbing is supposed to be about? Climbing is a personal experience and everyone is allowed to manifest that experience how they so choose. If someone else's experience (i.e., sport climbing in RMNP) isn't to your liking, that's fine, but don't be a bully and threaten to chop down their bolts. This form of bigotry is no different than any other.

If you want the bolts down, go about it the right way. If you want your unspoken "ethics and traditions" to be legitimized and protected within the park, take actual proactive steps towards making that happen. Talk to local officials, form an action committee that can approve or disapprove new fixed hardware in the Park, and arrive at a consensus together. In the mean time, realize that this climb was put up in total compliance with RMNP regulations and guidelines, and that as of now, it has as much of a right to be in the Park as any other route."

Umm, not fooling anybody with your profile a few seconds old. You must be mav or the other "fa" that doesn't take pride in your work or own. But you can creat a new profile to make it look like someone else supports your route. Lame.
By Greg D
From: Colorado
5 minutes ago
EDIT COMMENT
Closely bolted sport routes are just complex topropes. Since you already toproped this one why the effort and expense to set up the "complex toprope"?

Wow, I totally led that bitch. Red point, dude. ie, clip, toprope some moves, stand up, clip, toprope some moves, stand up, clip, toprope some moves....

Mark Hammond · · Eldorado Springs, CO · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 466

Colin, Cletus and Mav?

You made a mistake. Man up and fix it. Remove the route and do your best not to recreate this kind of mistake in the future.
That is all.

Monty · · Golden, CO · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 3,520

location, location, location

I'm starting to sympathize with these guys a little bit... Obviously they REALLY wanted a FA in the park, so they found a line and went about it drilling by hand as regulated by the park. Frome the pictures the line looks descent, not worth the hike in for 1 route but descent.

I know a lot of people are "anti-bolts" especially in RMNP, but there certainly is a lot of potential on the beautiful faces around the park. I'm not saying RMNP is going to harvest the next sport park, but I wouldn't be supprised that in the next few years more sport routes go in on some of the more obscure faces in the park.

If this route wasn't right off the trail, and maybe pre-planed a little better ie: camoed hangers at home, and not put in during high traffic hours; I don't think anyone would of said anything.

With all this said. I agree that the developers should remove their hardware, and just think of this as a fat chick at a bar... Sure she was fun then, but now that all of your friends know about her, it's just down right embarrising...

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

decent, Monty, DECENT!

Q B · · Estes Park · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 460

No. Not needed. Please remove. Unsightly. Unbelievable.

This is OUR park collectively. New routes and ideas are welcome, but they should adhere to the local ethics, traditions and the values and ideals that a Wilderness Area suggests. It would seem you guys could not see beyond the huge ego and attention seeking behavior, to realize that this mundane line has been passed by for decades for MANY reasons.

The whole issue tourists, weather etc. just frustrates. So you get shut down due to weather, go drink a bailey's and coffee and find another adventure. Or sack up and keep on with the adventure you planned. Anybody who is motivated to hike into the park for an alpine day is not so lazy and hard up that they MUST climb a stupid little bolted route right on the trail, just so somebody sees them. This sport is about personal adventure, yes, but that doesn't negate concern for the environment.
Instead this sport is turning into a ego-circus.
I don't want tourists watching or even knowing what I am up to. I don't even like when they see me come up from the fire trail, as I fear they might wander that way and tell all their gaper friends about it.

Mountain project can provide some useful information and meaningful discussions. Otherwise it is turning....or I guess, has always had opinionated weekend warriors and gumbies providing too strong of an opinion on issues they know very little about. I personally spend more of my time adventuring IN rather than talking and slamming about.

In this case, I am succumbing to M.P Forum in hopes that the less ethically inclined will realize that the defacing of more of RMNP and the idea that people find it okay....i.e. that it is just the growth of the sport, is disheartening and disgusting.

it is too nice out for this shit.........

Julius Beres · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 364

What's wrong with top roping? Seriously?

I'm not anti-bolts, and sport climbing can be fun... but most of the time, leading sport is just a convenience thing. It is easier to clip some bolts than to hike to the top and set up a TR. When you are climbing a sport route with bolts every few feet, your falls are never extreme and it is essentially a TR. (Don't get me wrong, there are spicier sport routes, but I'm talking about the average sport climb.)

I understand the ethic in trad that a climb isn't considered "climbed" until it has been lead, but I don't understand why this has been adopted by sport climbers. If people did not have this weird ethic, they wouldn't be inspired to put up needless bolts.

The logic behind this line is that if you are hiking to do a multi-pitch day and the weather is bad or you have time on your way out, maybe you will hop on this thing. But on a short wall, it wouldn't be too much effort to set up a TR (especially if you had been planning on doing one of the longer climbs in the area).

I can understand if there is a beautiful unclimbed multi-pitch face in the park that might go with bolts. But the only reason for bolting a short wall that can be top roped is to be able to say you had an FA.

Sport climbing has perplexed me many times because of this ethic. I am grateful for the guys who spend their time and money bolting lines, especially where TR access isn't easy or where the area is already highly developed and the routes cannot be naturally protected. But giving so much "credit" to the first person that happens to clip a bolt every 5 feet rather than TR a climb seems to me to encourage bad decision making when it comes to bolts...

If ever there was a line that should be TRed rather than bolted, one right off the trail in RMNP seems to qualify.

Dave Swink · · Boulder, Co · Joined Jun 2007 · Points: 285
Monty wrote:the developers should remove their hardware, and just think of this as a fat chick at a bar... Sure she was fun then, but now that all of your friends know about her, it's just down right embarrising...
Monty achieves the perfect perspective on the issue. Funny and true.
Crag Dweller · · New York, NY · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125

i don't like seeing the crap of irresponsible hikers (i.e. empty gatorade bottles, cigarette butts, etc.) at climbing spots or in the backcountry. i'm guessing responsible hikers don't want to see crap on the trails either.

chalk will become a permanent part of the rock if this route actually sees any traffic. let's not create a reason for people to think climbers are degrading their wilderness experience.

just take it down use the hardware to create a line in a more appropriate spot. i'll bet a lot of people would have a lot of respect for that action and the new line.

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

Hey, easy now --- one person's fat chick is another person's orgasm.

There's a lesson in that, somewhere; could be multiple lessons.

Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425

I wouldn't worry about it becoming the sport park...to generalize (and probably piss people off), most sport climbers are NOT into long approaches etc. They like to pull up their landrover to the crag and start clipping!!!

(Most of my friends are bolt clippers)

Monty · · Golden, CO · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 3,520
Mark Nelson wrote:decent, Monty, DECENT!
your right buff, "decent" is the standards of other areas in the front range, not The Park. If it's not a classic, it ain't worth the time or effort. There are plenty of decent routes in bc ccc and dh, we don't need to expand to the park for "decent" routes.

Ps thanks for the spelling correction buff. I've been so busy getting first descents, I forgot what was decent!
Rick Blair · · Denver · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 266

Not sure I have a problem with bolts in the park if necessary but this is a 40 foot wall for heavens sake. I would think avid sport climbers would find this over the top.

Even though most non-climbers don't care, the ones that do tend to be vocal. Have these guys not heard about what happened in Arches? What if someone got permission from a park ranger to bolt an arch? Should they do it?

We are between a rock and a hard place here ( no pun intended ) because it would be very difficult at this point to complain to the Park and not give the impression that climbers are trouble.

As someone who also enjoys hiking and views in Rocky Mountain National Park, I don't like this at all. Do the right thing guys.

Wiled Horse · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2002 · Points: 3,669
Monty wrote: ... There are plenty of decent routes in bc ccc and dh, we don't need to expand to the park for "decent" routes.
whoa whoa whoa... no "classics" in CCC? ;) i think classic is relative. but really its a state of mind.

as far as this "Poking 200 Nerves" route, I have deferred my judgement for now. But i will say that I hope y'all never make a poor decision in your climbing careers. And to the developers, (it would show some integrity if you had some names, otherwise why post the route to MP?), all i gotta say is, if you think you are tough enough to drill, then you should be tough enough to take the criticism and feedback (whether positive or negative). EDIT: and learn from it... ;)

Darren Mabe
Wiled Horse · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2002 · Points: 3,669
JLP wrote:but this "tough enough to drill" comment....
i was being sarcastic...

EDIT (and edit above): in other words... what kind of feedback did they expect?!
justin dubois · · Estes Park · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 525

i want these hangers!

Monty · · Golden, CO · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 3,520
JLP wrote: Jebus - spare us all the ego trip. I've seen 2 of these kids around and observed their skills, their antics, and my impression is that they're rude self centered little punks who don't know anything. Love your routes and your display of ethics in CCC, but this "tough enough to drill" comment just knocked my impression of you down a notch as well.
I think Darrens comment is just a little mis-worded. What he means is if your going to go out of your way to bolt a new climb, you automatically sign up to be widely criticized (both good and bad). If you then post that route on MP. You better be ready for the worst.

Jlp, don't take his comment the wrong way, if you knew Him you would understand the humor in his comment. We all know tough guys don't need power toys ( or hand drills!)
Brad White · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 25

" being a part of the climbing world I feel like establishing new routes is a fundamental part of the sport"

Without commenting too directly on what was said in the above, it occurs to me that perhaps the old-timers have dropped the ball in schooling the new generation of climbers. The vast majority of climbers have never established a new route, and most of us that have, have "created" an obscure climb or two on some chossy crag that will most likely never achieve popular status. The few that I've been involved with might never see a second ascent. For me, establishing new routes has not been a fundamental part of my climbing experience (I understand not everyone experiences climbing in the same way), but interacting with and trying to experience the natural world on (mostly) its own terms has been. I think a person that makes such a statement should ask themselves what the motive is for establishing a new route. In my opinion, just wanting to have established a route in RMNP is not a valid reason for doing a route with fixed gear.

If this is your motive, maybe you could try to do so by climbing one of the many unclimbed natural lines in RMNP that could be protected with removeable gear.Just spend an afternoon sometime up in Glacier Gorge looking around. There are hundreds of things up there just waiting for you, that would not require bolts, or bolting right off of a popular tourist trail.

Tea · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 223
WiledHorse wrote:if you think you are tough enough to drill, then you should be tough enough to take the criticism and feedback (whether positive or negative). EDIT: and learn from it... ;) Darren Mabe
I more or less agree, and assume the tone was meant tongue in cheek...not macho.

Drill a bolt, paint a target on your shirt. Criticism comes with the territory of FA's.

Happy new routing!
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665

Here's the thing. I have my own opinion, but I'll save that for later. What I'm presently observing now is close to 100% negative feedback. Let's ignore the hikers for a moment and just ask ourselves about the climbing community, which is who the route is "for" anyway, right? Well, it appears that the gift wasn't wanted.

So there are three approaches that can be taken with unwanted gifts:
1) Take it back and offer it to someone else.
2) Offer the person the receipt and let them go exchange it
3) Indignantly tell them they have to keep it and see how that goes for you.

Each of these has a correlary in the case at hand, and each an obvious outcome.
1) You get your hangers back to place elsewhere, you do a little work, and everyone is cool about it.
2) They get your hangers to place elsewhere, but you save yourself some work, and everyone is cool about it..
3) They get your hangers to place elsewhere and you save yourself some work, but the others think you are a joke for trying to force it on them.

Why fight the tide? In your shoes, I would leave the info up on MP.com, explain that it was bolted for lead, but debolted due to feeback, and leave it as a TR, which most people would have thought was pretty cool.

---------------

Another matter- my own opinion. I saw the pics when they were new- what, a week ago? They were TR pics. I thought to myself: "Huh, I wonder how many times I went by that. Cool, Someone climbed it, too bad I never thought to."
When I saw this thread and realized it was bolted right off the trail my thoughts were more like "Oh dear... this is going to cause a mess." It's not so much that I approve or disapprove (I lean towards disapprove) that is my point here, but I could have told you what the public reaction would have been, and would have advised to avoid stirring that up. Something 200' off of the trail facing a different way would have been another matter.

-----------------

So what now? My advice to the bolters is: Remove the bolts, apologize for any offense, since that was not the intention, and then tell people who are on your case so bad:

"If you insist on being so boarish to us, your message gets lost in your attitude and it makes it really hard for us or anyone else to see your point. So let's take it easy here and not back someone into a corner to the point where they are defensive and can't correct a mistake. Sheesh, what's worse, making a correctable mistake or blowing your stack completely over it?"

I hope both sides see where I am going with that. I'm not saying anyone in particular is being THAT BAD (some are certainly worse than others) but I am saying that it is easy to be perceived that way when you attack both the creation and the creator.

Phil Lauffen · · Innsbruck, AT · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 3,098
Tony B wrote: Lots of wordie things
I agree with that. Cool that you're putting up routes. Bad Location. The best you're gonna get right now is an advance to the rear (retreat) with some dignity. People don't like the route. Thats how it is gonna be. Might as well keep your hangars.
DB Cee · · Chattanooga, TN · Joined May 2007 · Points: 146

Maybe not the most sound decision in bolting, but whatever. Bolts are expensive, for sure...I'm pretty picky about where I put mine, wouldn't have put them there, but you guys did, so I hope you enjoyed the route at least?

You guys are taking this shit way too seriously. It's a 40 foot tall cliff. Looks like a turd, for sure...but the park is far from pristine...it's a tourist zoo for christ sakes.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Colorado
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