Avalanches
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Did anyone go to the presentation at Neptunes: 'Avalanches...Myths and Facts'? I am curious to know what the myths are. |
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Myth: Skiing trees will make you safe. |
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A forested slope can slide, but trees do help with anchoring so it isn't quite as likely to slide. As long as you aren't skiing through sparse areas of disaster species trees like aspens you are at least a bit safer from a slide in the trees, if not bulletproof. |
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Other myths: |
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Here's an interesting article in today's Boulder Daily Camera. Dale Atkins, one of the world's foremost avalanche experts, dispels an important piece of mythological dogma about avalanches: swim to survive. |
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Here's one (fact) that disturbed me when I heard it: most people caught in backcountry slides are educated to assess avalanche threats. |
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You'd have to talk with the guy already mentioned (Dale). He's quite a down to earth fellow. I think the mindset isn't as much pushing the limits as the mindset of: I already know what to look for and it can't happen to me. |
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Dale now works for Backcountry Access and some consulting. |
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I've been caught in slides and buried. I've found the whole swimming thing to be pretty pointless. You get kicked around like a rag doll and have absolutely no control. You don't even know which way is up, down or sideways. I just try to roll into a ball to protect my core and cover my airway. Since I now ski with an avalung, I would imagine I would try to get that into my mouth but I've yet to find out if I have the where with all to do that and hopefully I won't need to find out. |
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John McNamee wrote:I've been caught in slides and buried. I've found the whole swimming thing to be pretty pointless. You get kicked around like a rag doll and have absolutely no control. You don't even know which way is up, down or sideways. I just try to roll into a ball to protect my core and cover my airway. Since I now ski with an avalung, I would imagine I would try to get that into my mouth but I've yet to find out if I have the where with all to do that and hopefully I won't need to find out.I heard you even ski off short cliffs in whiteouts...(ha! 'Bout the only time you didn't guide us from the rear, thankfully...). What's the word, "claggy"? Funny in hindsite. Scary at the time... Still, the "you gotta fight!" (my favorite scene from the Utah avy video, with a classic quote from the OAG Tom Kimbrough) is commonly preached. I dunno. The whole "brazil nut effect" (great analogy) makes some sense to me, but, I still wonder if a swimming motion would help you from getting entrained in a long running slide, like, down a long gully slide path. They move so fast, sometimes. Best to avoid if at all possible... Bruce Tremper's avy book talks about about the demographics of who gets caught and why. Pretty interesting. Male hubris seems to rank right up there... |
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Cmon, Brian it was at least 60 feet... |
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I've shamefully been involved in an avalanche due to poor judgement of changing aspects. Anyhow, I will concur with Dale in that swimming is not the ticket, but for practical reasons not yet mentioned. The problem I noticed after fighting for my life for what seemed like minutes during a slide, is that I was so out of breath (part panic and part fight for life) that I wouldn't have had a chance to catch my breath, avalung or not, if I hadn't come out on top. |
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That's an interesting article by Dale. It might be fun to somehow do experiments to see if objects the size and density of people rise to the top during an avalanche. I don't think large rocks are observed to rise to the surface during an avalanche, but their density is much higher than a person. |
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George Bell wrote:That's an interesting article by Dale. It might be fun to somehow do experiments to see if objects the size and density of people rise to the top during an avalanche. I don't think large rocks are observed to rise to the surface during an avalanche, but their density is much higher than a person.It is interesting. One thing I've noticed, is that the whopper big slides 'round here in the last few years seem to entrain debris at all levels. We've had a couple big 80 or 100 year type slides that have been huge and have run real long distances (next to or God's Lawnmower in BCC, Scottys in LCC, etc). When they cleared the road, it was interesting to look at the debris distribution. Trees seem to be chopped up and distributed throughout and didn't seem like a disproportionate amount of "stuff" ended up on the surface. Not going to volunteer for any personal testing, though! Probably too many variables to make any generalizations. If you're on a steep slope that pops loose, if you can somehow stick to the bed surface and let the thing go past, that'd be better than being entrained. And, seems like a fair number of folks are buried in terrain traps or intiate a slide that hits them from above...etc. Watch yer topknots! |
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For those that would like some info, here's the CAIC (Col. Avalanche Info Ctr) investigative reports: |
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Statistically, the most likely person to be caught in (and die) in an avalanche is the Avy Level One certified person. In general, they know just enough to be dangerous. I haven't read a report about this, but on the Winter Park Pro Patrol, I work with a lot of VERY avy savy guys. |
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Brian in SLC wrote: The whole "brazil nut effect" (great analogy) makes some sense to me, but, I still wonder if a swimming motion would help you from getting entrained in a long running slide, like, down a long gully slide path.Was there evidence of avalanches showing the "brazil-but effect" or was this just postulated? I know there are correlations for predicting whether the "brazil nut effect" or "reverse brazil nut effect" occurs in granular systems (based on competition between percolation and condensation mechanisms), however I wonder if these might be outside of the systems that were examined? Sounds like it the presentation may have been interesting. |
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There is only one way to truly survive an avalanche and that is not to be caught in one, but that is pretty unrealistic. |
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I also believe that the fastest increasing victim of avalanches are snowmobilers, particularly those playing highmark. |
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John M: "Does a helmet make you a safer skier?" |
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I have seen snowmobilers highpointing dangerous terrain, and skiers dropping into equally dangerous terrain simultaneously. Does this mean that one party is "dumber" than the other, and less deserved of rescue. Each one equally deserves rescue, they just choose different toys to push the envelope with. Best idea is to not necessitate rescue. Does safety gear make you push limits? Of course it does. Just as in climbing, our gear allows us to do things that we wouldn't normally do without it. |