Shawn M. that was a perceptive post about poison. If I spent more than a few minutes now and then fretting over Scott Ayers I would have to agree and I would have gone for counseling. (This thread being more than I usually think about it in a year)

Daryl, thanks for the answers.

Jon, relax this is discussion, it is one of the things this country is founded on.

Dan Cohen, I appreciate your thoughtful posts and am glad to read them. I have respect for you and anyone else willing to type their way into the record.

As far as Rickd goes I think he is just blowing off steam and I think he realizes the community would not stand for it as they didn't for Ken Nichols actions out east.

I would not put up with Rickd or anyone else if he was out there chopping Scott's or anyone elses route.

I would do it because even though Rickd and Scott have "personal issues" it is still wrong. That is what I am asking you guys to do. Take a stand and say to Scott that despite what Eric may or may not have done to you, chopping a route is not the solution.

I don't go after Scott for the fun of it, I go after him because he is out of line. If you guys don't have what Jon said to stand up to him and insist he quit saying one thing and doing another then I will. That's why we have this very long but interesting thread.

Oh, and as far as the rain in the Stronghold goes, I wouldn't do that to climbers because chopping routes is really DICK! On the other, hand sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.

THIS IS IMPORTANT, I WISH I HAD TYPED IT FOUR PAGES AGO.

You guys can Quote this. If Scott puts the original camo hangers you couldn't see from the ground, back on those variations and replaces any bolts he may have chopped, and if he promises not to go messing with other peoples routes even a little, and he promises not to tell everyone what and where and how they can climb and bolt, then Scott will never hear from me again. If Scott posts these promises on a thread here on Mtn. Project, I give you my word Scott will only hear from me on this and other sites when I comment on the routes he puts up.

Does the above seem unreasonable. Is this not what any of you want from other climbers?

So there you have it Dan. Do you think we need a public meeting to sort this out or can you and his other friends convince Scott to do the above.

Also for the record, a few years ago I asked a couple of Scott's friends to set up a meeting so we could work this out but I never heard anything.

Hey Philfell, I am pushing this online so that there is a record of it. Scott has a habit of saying one thing then doing another when it suits him. I think that is why he gets such a hostile reaction online, people don't like that sort of behavior.

I had every right to remove the jackass' bolts on the Druid as I can prove month and date of the FA, predating his or his claimed Argueso ascent. He did not have the right to replace those- but did. It is the Druid, a loss anyway.

In 1994 I started work with Sky Island Alliance and others in the hopes of turning the Stronghold into a wilderness for my one purpose, to ban (and enforce the ban) of cordless drills (worked in the Supes!). Scott's BS route right of Knead Me (which he promised to remove) is just one of the hundreds of tripe routes leading to my thoughts. Final analysis of the area determined it was not likely to occur (roads, Soren Pass and China Camp in particular).

I gave up on crags (unlike mr ken). I'd like more people to think about what others have done (citing EFR's notes on Scott). When Scott mouths off that he "creates amusement parks for others" and "has done 2,500 first ascents in a state in which he does not live (Owens River, CA, noted 1994)" one must wonder what goes through his egotistical head.

You all don't care. And those out there who love Scott just keep that up- I hope it serves you well. I give up - eat all the rock up, drill everything within reach- don't even try to "lead" anymore. And for god's sake don't buy any gear it might hurt your wallet or you may have to use it.

Meanwhile, I'll stick to the choss, the illegal stuff, and the areas only Karl R. would have gone to(RIP-and Jeffy still does). I remember what Lee Dexter told me 13 years ago- He no longer goes to the primary or even secondary areas as too much has been lost. Those third string things look pretty cool right now.....

wow - some really excellent stuff has been posted since i visited yesterday afternoon! i'm at work and can't reply intelligently with the few minutes I have, but look forward to chiming in afterward.

I'm still not sure after reading this thread if the bolts were chopped, mysteriously moved, futzed with or whatever. As for the "anyone who has posted on this thread voice an opinion" thing, I guess this would be mine. Also note, there are exceptions to all of the stuff below, but generally, this is how I roll.

As for this particular chopping/moving episode, I don't have enough information to make a real call on whether it was good, bad, or something in between.

That being said, I don't like squeeze jobs or most bolts near cracks. They get a chop vote.

I don't usually like variations that cross other routes, unless they are obvious lines that might use a bolt or two to get well away from the route being crossed. If not, they get a chop vote.

I don't like other people fukking with bolts on established routes that they did not put up. This includes adding bolts, moving bolts, or somehow changing the character of the route.

I don't like spineless chopping by anyone, for any reason. If you chop it, at least take responsibility for your actions. If you are called out about your actions, be it moving, adding, or removing bolts from some route, you should have an explanation available for anyone who needs one.

I don't like "big dog" bullshit at the crags where one guy or a group of guys think they control all the new rock. Everyone owns the rock and should have an equal opportunity to develop ie: drill and establish new routes. If you put a crappy route, or botch the job the "community" should decide what to do with your mess, as in chop it, deal out a reprimand, or maybe even educate the offenders on just what is expected at that area.

As for Scott, who I know and like quite a bit, I've enjoyed many of his routes out there at the Stronghold. Mostly I just blindly clip the bolts usually not knowing if they are on top of someone's masterpiece, added later, or are some sort of fuel for another bolt war fire. I'm just climbing, clipping fat bolts and having some fun. The heavy lifting of chopping and outrage should be left up to those in the know. I can appreciate the work Scott puts into these routes, but I can also appreciate those of you in the know, and the decisions ya'll have made regarding your home crags.

Russ, I would be inclined to echo your post for the most part. I have only a passing acquaintance with Scott, but have greatly enjoyed many of his routes. I have also enjoyed quite a few routes put up by the other side of this dispute. That being said, I am reminded of something my friend Derek once said to me concerning a similar situation in Eldorado Canyon; "Stu, I'm too busy climbing to get involved in these arguments."

<quote=Russ WallingThat being said, I don't like squeeze jobs or most bolts near cracks. They get a chop vote.

That means a lot of bolts get chopped on End Game.

I don't usually like variations that cross other routes, unless they are obvious lines that might use a bolt or two to get well away from the route being crossed. If not, they get a chop vote.

Could chop a few of the bolts on the Varitions or maybe all of them.

I don't like spineless chopping by anyone, for any reason. If you chop it, at least take responsibility for your actions. If you are called out about your actions, be it moving, adding, or removing bolts from some route, you should have an explanation available for anyone who needs one.

I don't like it either.

I don't like "big dog" bullshit at the crags where one guy or a group of guys think they control all the new rock. Everyone owns the rock and should have an equal opportunity to develop ie: drill and establish new routes. If you put a crappy route, or botch the job the "community" should decide what to do with your mess, as in chop it, deal out a reprimand, or maybe even educate the offenders on just what is expected at that area.

Me neither.

I'd like to take this thread in a new direction. I think we've established that there should be no rogue bolt chopping of any kind in Southern AZ.

Forum threads are a permanent record of people voicing their displeasure, gonad shape & size, etc, but they are obviously not an adequate deterrent. A similar thread comes to mind about a guy in Utah who lied about FAs, chopped bolts, added bolts, etc, etc. Many people, including myself, made it crystal clear that we did not approve. However, our posts & emails didn't do a thing to slow down the meathead's actions. The only reason he finally stopped is because he got jail time for something entirely unrelated. So, what can we do to prevent these things from happening again, short of tar & feathers or actual laws about adding/removing fixed protection? On second thought, I'm for the tar & feathers, but only if they're flamingo feathers.

Off...to the new direction...

One thing I know from past experience in the Boulder region...If we can't/won't regulate ourselves...the local land managers will be happy to step in. This generally begins with a general prohibition against bolting new routes. Then, over the course of time (in some cases over a decade) new drilling may be permitted through some sort of application/vetting process. I'm not sure if this scenario is good or bad, I think this depends on your ethical prospective. However, I am sure of one thing, and this goes for all areas throughout the nation, if we can't/won't police ourselves, the authorities will!

You guys need to give it a rest.

For yourself and for climbing.

Eric, Geir, I don't want to get into my person route setting / bolting ethics on a public forum. I'll end up saying something that gets blown out of proportion and then have everyone mad at me. But if you want to discuss it more I'm always up for climbing and hanging out. Just let me know where and when. I will be at Sweet Rock this weekend setting a new route.

I realized today that in 37 years I'll be 80. That's not many good climbing years left. So I'm not going to waste them on this forum anymore.

sounds fair, mike. see you at the crags some time, and maybe we can get a beer. although i'll probably opt for a soft drink.

i'm off to sleep for now, but have some thoughts to share later.