Just curious, are they still "my hangers" or is it "their hardware" anymore once installed (on public land)?

Fred

Skeeuze me while I whip this out...

Hello all. I am just checking in after introducing the topic to the community a several months ago. I am buds with everyone involved and I have no personal vendettas against anyone. However, the facts should be restated: some bolts were chopped and some hangers were replaced without the consent of the first ascentionist. The hangers that were replaced on the variation are of lesser quality. Look, this is just not the way we do things and our community should not stand for this. Plus, it is just kind of weird.

I am baffled why Dan Cohen, or anyone else, is standing up for his bro on this one. I am friends with both Scott and Eric. If Eric pulled this shenanigans I would lay into him too(and he would probably lean back into me...).

It is impressive to me that a bunch of rogue athletes can co-exist so well and that situations like this don't erupt more often. We all help to 'manage' our public resource while trying to not piss each other off or get banned from using the land. This type of forum represents a lot more than 1% of the climbers in the area and it is not ineffective (in response to Dan's comments). This is one way for people who care about climbing issues to voice their opinion. If Scott does not want to be involved, perhaps for good reason at this point, that is his deal. We don't need to waste people's time at some bs meeting at the gym or campus. Look at the history of bolting meetings if you are interested in things that are ineffective (I can share info from the 1980's, 1990's and 2000's with anyone who is interested in mostly failed arbitration attempts).

At least this situation will stand as an example of what the community is not willing to tolerate. It is probably less likely to happen again. Some people made some mistakes this time. Remember, it is just climbing and sometimes people do stupid things that they might regret. No sense in demanding an explanation or an apology or terrorizing an individual. It really doesn't matter as long as this episode is not repeated. Ever.

Oh, and I second Daryl's previous comment.

First, let me repeat some of what I said in the other post:

Two men (Scott and Eric), who I consider my brothers, are involved in an (awful) fight. They are both good men, men with extraordinarily strong wills. Each hates the other. Neither gives up. There is no reconciliation—ever.

(These days) they have done most of the first ascents in the area. They have provided the community with untold hours of climbing pleasure. Both are a pleasure to climb with and (both are my good friends.)

Second, if my foolish dog metaphor did not make it clear---I think both are equally at fault. This version of their fight has played itself out on End Pinnacle. Next time it will be some place else. This End Pinnacle business is only the peg upon which they hang their angry hats.

Third, another individual has joined this fight on Eric’s side---Geir. And I fear Dan Cohen’s post is accurate. I fear that Geir’s hatred of Scott (like Eric’s and Scott’s hatred of each other) has roots that transcend the color, size or shape of hangers on a route on End Pinnacle.

The truth as I see---- it is that this horrible fuss is really far more about the individuals involved than about climbing.

I find these men’s hatred disturbing and embarrassing. Unfortunately, it closely mirrors the world. I had always hoped that climbers would be different.

I think what should trouble everyone more than seeing these men fight---is the effect that these kind of fights can have on our climbing access.

If you love climbing and want your children be able to enjoy it then I beg all of you out there, when you are reading these kinds of posts, consider what effect they might have on our long term access. These three men cannot.

The spirit of my comments should not be mistaken or misrepresented through selective sound bites. I think this situation should be brushed under the rug. I think it has run its course and will serve as an example of what not to do. I don't regret bringing this situation to the attention of the community, but I also cringe at the useless mud slinging.

And to answer your question about what I think about Jim's comments I would say that I don't. Jim is a big boy and I don't care what he says on this forum or in person. He is a good dude who was pretty worked up about this stuff because he has a serious vested interest. Calling someone spineless for not standing behind his actions is harsh but not a smear. I personally wouldn't say that, and do not necessarily agree with it, but when someone does something as controversial as chopping bolts, they better brace themselves for a lot worse than that. Scott is a big boy too. He has been around for a while and I am sure he thought of these things before he acted.

Drama drama drama. Sigh...

Scott McNamara, we have been friends for some time but if you post that I hate Scott Ayers one more time please take me off your list. It is bullshit and I am frankly getting tired of it. This is the second time you have posted that I hate Scott Ayers and I don't. So knock it off or delete my phone number.

I decided a long time ago that Scott Ayers was not going to tell me what, where, when, or how I climb or protect routes and that is why we don't get along. The routes that I did on End pinnacle are a response to his telling me I was not allowed to put them there.

As far as you guys that are worried about SA being bashed give it up. If you had done anything like he did you would have stood up and said why you did it and defended your actions. That is what people that have nothing to hide do.

Mike D. Can SA make changes to you or Daryl's routes at Sweet Rock? How about if he decides to bolt up Days of Future Past. Should we let him do anything he wants, even if it is something he has told others they cannot do, because he is going to take away his hardware and use it somewhere else? Or because all his routes entitle him to some extra privileges? All of you in this forum might want to ask yourself this.

SA doesn't post here because his actions will not hold up to public viewing.

If you guys really think about it does anyone else who puts up routes in Southern Arizona get BASHED? Why do you think that is? Hell does anyone in Arizona? I have been putting up stuff for years but I don't fear this site and I am not afraid to post up and take my lumps. I think you guys sit and listen to Scott's tales of persecution and believe it is all so undeserved. Anyone attacked Andy Peters, Tony Horness, Me, Jim Scott, Ray Ringle, Mike Head, Dave DesChamps Tony Lusk. NO. I wonder why? Scott Ayers is reaping what he has sown over the years by actions like the one on end pinnacle.

If you all want Scott to do anything he wants then elect him king of the Stronghold.

This happens to be my last night in Tucson. My time here has been enriched by the climbing itself as much as the people I have met through climbing. Thanks to Eric, Scott, Jim, and everyone else whose routes I have enjoyed (which is a ton of people I realize I haven't listed). Thank you to everyone who I have climbed with...

With that said, it is tragic that an otherwise great community is plagued by such divisiveness. The feud between Eric and Scott has implications beyond themselves and the hangers on End Pinnacle.

While Eric and Scott have provided us with an enormous amount of climbing, the leadership has been lacking. Whether they like it or not, they are de facto leaders of the community.

In the spirit of being constructive, I am calling on Eric and Scott to sit down and have a face to face talk. I realize they may not be become pals, but putting an end to this feud can only benefit the community.

Anyone who is in support of this, please post up.

(I'm emailing this post to Scott. He will see it).

Ditto to Erik M, and strongly agree with EFR's comments.

Scott M, please do not post that I "hate" Scott. I don't.

I do, however, disapprove of some of his actions, specifically what I documented in the OP and the things that EFR mentioned above.

Let me get this straight - you have a huge thread on bolt chopping...big enough that you even sucker people who haven't even climbed in AZ to look at it...

And this is all about swapping some beefy hangers for some smaller but bomber stainless hangers that are better camo anyway?

That's IT?

HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!




out this way, chopping is chopping, and we try keep it quiet since if it goes public there's much less chance of mutual friends defusing the situation...

I like Daryl's post lets just all smoke more weed im sure that will fix everything, well all just forget what bolts were where and who put them there and we can all just climb and be happy... and high thats always good too.