In mid-march, local climber Erik Murdock reported that a route in Cochise Stronghold may have been chopped. This was discussed in the following thread:

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/arizona__new_mexico/cochise>>>>>

Because the incident occurred just before the Falcon closure, it was impossible to determine what had happened. Now that the closure is over, I went to End Pinnacle to see for myself what had been done.

A topo detailing the route in question can be downloaded by clicking this link:

http://www.geir.com/end%20pinnacle%20w.pdf

The route that was reported to be chopped is labeled in green on the lower half of the topo.

Here is what I found:

1) All but one of the brand-new Fixe hangers that were used to equip the route 6 months earlier were removed.

2) The new Fixe hangers were replaced with old SMC hangers with peeling camouflage paint.

3) The bolt threads were mangled so that removal of the hangers will be difficult or impossible.

4) There are some newly placed bolts on Endgame. The newly placed bolts are much more visible than its old ones.


There were about five newly-placed metolius hangers on Endgame. The older bolts on Endgame look identical to the used hangers placed on the route in question. In light of this, it appears as if the 12+ year-old bolts were removed from Endgame and placed on the new route.

It also appears as if the first bolt on the damaged route has been chopped, although since I did not put up this route I cannot say for sure.


Below is a photo of the one remaining Fixe hanger at the top of the route. All of the original hangers on the route were similar to this one.

So if I try the "green route" tomorrow..

• Will I encounter unexpected scary runouts, or is it reasonable?

• Can I feel ok about falling on these bolts?

George,

Thanks, and good questions. To answer your question, the only runout region of the climb is on easy terrain at the top of the pitch. To my knowledge, this part of the route wasn't changed. I doubt very much the responsible person was trying to make the route unsafe.

"It also appears as if the first bolt on the damaged route has been chopped, although since I did not put up this route I cannot say for sure."

Just curious about the (possibly?) newly created 10c runout? Is it safe because it's very overhanging?

Anyway that bolt-swapping guy sure has a wicked sense of humor :-)

Geir,
Thank you for making such an effort to make sure that the route in question is still safe. I am not sure I want to get into the talk about whats right and whats wrong here, but bottom line is you went out there and saw for yourself whats going on and for that thank you very much.

I haven't been there but I think there is a step missing.

I think the hangers got removed by one party.

I think another unrelated party came and replaced the hangers (not the same ones but clearly functional ones) and damaged the threads so they would not get removed again.

The angst directed at the guy who put the hangers there should be praise that he replaced them on a route someone chopped.

Of course I couldn't find Cochise on an Arizona map without google, so take that for what it's worth.

hey john-

i wish that were the case, but it is not. all of this was done by one individual. there's a link in the OP providing some background.

regards,
geir

WTF. that's just bizarre...

Yeah, it's good to know vegas hasn't cornered the "uhh...why?" market as of yet. Seems like someone's got beef with the route-is the route any good? Was there a rap bolting issue/conflict that started all this? Could be worse, I guess, though the fuct threads was a dick move fo sho.

All this cloak and dagger stuff is fun an all... but who exactly did this swapping and chopping?

No veils, no initials, no insinuations..... let's have a name.

I'm okay with it, so long as the person(s) who did it posts here why he did it. C'mon, call my bluff!

BTW, I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, as I don't know who's responsible.

Seriously though, I am 100% against altering routes without first consulting the climbing community. I've done plenty of routes in southern AZ that I think should be modified in some way, but I leave them alone, since there's a good chance I could be in the minority. I would also rather climb than switch out bolt hangers, although I hear it's a blast! Speaking of that, I'm curious:

Were stainless steel hangers replaced with galvanized hangers? I can't tell from the pics.

I have been climbing the Stronghold for a while now and love the place. Have a small bit of involvement in the Sweet Rock development (all the credit should go to Daryl and Mike I just top rope their projects from time to time before a route is bolted to get input on bolt placement). With that said I feel like if someone came in and changed out the bolts that were there I would be upset. If someone wants to change bolts or mess with a route in anyway I would think there needs to be an open discussion with the community and the FA party should be involved. Messing with fixed pro is not a good trend to set. People go out there expecting the bolts to be there, and if anyone can just up and decide to mess with them you can really put people at risk. That's just my $.02.

Thanks to all those out there developing the stronghold, the place is magical and the climbing is out of this world! And again thanks to Geir for going out there and inspecting this stuff and bringing this topic to our attention.

Actually, I think galvanized hangers were replaced with stainless ones. If I'm not mistaken, Fixe 25kN hangers (like the one pictured) are the non-stainless type. Maybe someone just wanted to upgrade the hangers?

I am pretty sure that the hangers were stainless and I want them put back. SCOTT AYERS I know you are lurking and I want my hangers put back. I put those big FIXE hangers on there so people could tell the difference between the variations and Endgame. It is the rainy season so it is a good time to put them back.

So, you guys are saying, in no uncertain terms, that Scott Ayres is the perp on this?


If so, seriously Scott.... tell us what it is all about. Mystery chopping and swapping is so 1979.

I have tried to follow this storyline over the past few months, but have to admit I am still unclear as to what happened.

Can someone post the 4 sentence version of what happened and why?

1. Once upon a time Big Dog #1 and Big Dog #2 lived in the same little kennel, shared bowls, and only occasionally growled at each other---both pooooo-ed in different spots.

2. Gradually their bowls seemed to get smaller, everything changed, and Big Dog #1 thinks he owns the Strongbone---Big Dog #2 does not like this attitude, wants some of the Strongbone and does not want Big Dog #1 to have it to himself.

3. Big Dog #2 does his business in Big Dog #1's most favorite pee spot---it gets chopped, replaced and "swapped and chopped." (Thanks Russ!)

4. BAD DOGS, BAD DOGS---forest service gonna get shock collars!

soctt mcn.

you forgot the other Big Dog who was pissing there first (and he arrives at tucson international tomorrow).

man. I love the stronghold. I've climbed a bunch of routes there and have had some of the best adventures of my life on multi pitch routes there. Eric and Scott put up about 75% of those routes YOU GUYS ROCK! Thank you.


However, this crap with messing around with other peoples routes just stinks. Just like all that DOG PISS, just stinks.

Again I think we all owe Eric and Scott a big thank you for all that they've done for the climbing community! Oh and thanks to Geir for being amazingly solid and professional in bringing all of this to light.

The Indian Spirits are hard at work trying to restore the place and eliminate all climbing.

I agree that new variations can be established responsibly and I think Scott should not have done what he did without talking to Eric. However, what did the variation look like? It appears to have had very large dark bolts. Maybe Scott thought it would be more aesthetically pleasing to use camo bolts. After all, it seems no bolts were actually chopped and the route is still climbable. Maybe the changes should be left alone (let the rock be) and kept as a historical reminder. In general, I believe in altering the rock as little as possible since it is a nonrenewable resource. So... if the climb is safe, I support letting this one slide. I also hope that someday Scott and Eric can resolve their differences.