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Are sport climbs of a more moderate grade desirable?
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By Richard Radcliffe
From Louisville, CO
Nov 13, 2007
Oh, and having a 2000 ft. fully bolted 5.4 seems kind of silly. I thought the question was about bolting climbs basically for beginners. I wouldn't consider a 2000 ft. 5.4 a beginner's climb even if it was bolted. Just look at the standard east face route on the 3rd Flatiron. It's bolted... ;-)

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By Stone Nude
Nov 13, 2007
When dumb people have disposable income, hilarity ...
Don't take the 5.4 idea too seriously-yanking the chain a bit, thought there might be some interesting support or defamation of the idea. The thing is, that kind of route is possible in Red Rock because *everything* is climbable. Right now under the wilderness study it's highly illegal to put up multi-pitch sport in the canyons at any grade, but that's not saying that someone might not do such a thing. I wanted to see what reactions would be. Personally, I'd probably laugh, climb it, then dismiss it unless the quality was really there. I don't know if that makes me a grade-hater, it would just seem a little forced, like some of the bolts on Crimson Chrysalis, and so on.

The whole idea really came from the dismissal of Prince of Darkness. Any thoughts on that?

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By alpinglow
From city, state
Nov 13, 2007
sounds like a route you might be able to redpoint killis

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By Stone Nude
Nov 30, 2007
When dumb people have disposable income, hilarity ...
I redpointed your mother, right after I pinkpointed your little sister. Cheers!

Sean Connery Celebrity Jeopardy Forever

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By JmH
From Arizona
Dec 29, 2007
I am a beginner with a couple of kids who are interested in climbing too and I have been dreaming of a small sport crag with real easy and bolted routes. I definitely get more satisfaction leading than TR'ing.

I am probably taking it to the extreme though because I would like a place with like 5.0 to 5.5 and maybe 50 Ft or so high max. It seems that new leaders would benefit because they don't have to worry about the placement of pro as in an ez trad route and you get a chance to start acquiring lead skills as you are coming up from the low grades. Then you could make the jump to trad.

I am on the lookout for a place to develop like this in either the Phoenix area or Tucson that won't bring a rash of "noobs" into a popular area. Maybe someday.

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By JmH
From Arizona
Dec 29, 2007
JmH wrote:
I am a beginner with a couple of kids who are interested in climbing too and I have been dreaming of a small sport crag with real easy and bolted routes.


sport crag with bolted routes...redundant

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By Old and Busted
From Centennial, CO
Dec 29, 2007
Stabby
A year later, I still have reservations about sport climbs that are too easy specifically due to the fact that inexperienced climbers will have to eventually perform the untie/set up rap or lower/re-tie manuever.

That said, this time a year from now the Denver area will have a new batch of killer, long moderate sport and trad routes.

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By Forest Starr
Dec 29, 2007
Yes, with a host of aging climbers and new climbers entering the ranks, moderate to easy (5.0-5.6) sport climbs and top ropes are highly desirable, and yet conspicuously absent from many climbing areas.

We had just posted this note about needing more safe and easy climbs in Red Rock(s) before we noticed others had come to the same conclusion in this thread.
mountainproject.com/v/nevada/e...

We need more safe and easy climbing routes.

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By John J. Glime
From Salt Lake City, UT
Dec 29, 2007
...
Because I am not interested in doing the research, someone remind me of the drilling/bolt placing laws at Red Rocks these days.

It is probably still a mess. While there is wonderful potential at RR for the type of climbing you are describing, I don't think it's going to happen.

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By Forest Starr
Dec 29, 2007
It seems that bolting is allowed in the Calico Hills of Red Rock (which is where we envisioned new easy and safe routes). The situation in the wilderness areas of Red Rock seems more complex.

From the BLM website.
blm.gov/nv/st/en/fo/lvfo/blm_p...

"Bolting along the main escarpment, which is a wilderness study area, is illegal and should not be done... Bolting is legal along Calico 1 & 2 but should be done only after consulting the climbing staff, a local climbing shop, or the Las Vegas Climber's Liason Council."


From the Access Fund website.
accessfund.org/display/page/AA...

"The preliminary Wilderness Plan for Red Rock has been released. Among other things, it contains a significant and somewhat complex plan for allowing bolting within the Wilderness Areas in the park."

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By John J. Glime
From Salt Lake City, UT
Dec 29, 2007
...
Forest Starr wrote:
Bolting is legal along Calico 1 & 2 but should be done only after consulting the climbing staff, a local climbing shop, or the Las Vegas Climber's Liason Council."


Or what? If it is legal and you are a bolter, why would you ask permission if you don't need permission?

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By Francis Baker (fran)
From Las Vegas,NV
Jan 2, 2008
Leading at RR
Please stop calling climbing "safe"!!!

There are lots of routes like the ones you seek just buy some traditional gear and go climb them. Most climbs in that range have lots of features and don't warrant bolts. These are really basic climbing philosophy's

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By Jimbo
Jan 2, 2008
I agree with Richard. The quality of the line is more important than the grade.

Also anyone that needs a line of bolts on a 5.4 should not be 1500 ft. off the deck in the first place. Your just asking for trouble. The rescue on Sheepshead in Cochise Stronghold this weekend bears this out.
This was on a 5.10a not a 5.4!

There's nothing wrong with paying your dues before you tackle the big stuff.

All us old duffers had to do it, why the need to skip from gym to long routes with none of the requisite training and experience.

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By Darren in Vegas
From Las Vegas, NV
Jan 10, 2008
Skiing around.
When I first started climbing sport climbing started at 5.10 and even those were really considered warm ups for the "real" sport climbs.
I have a hard time thinking of anything less as sport climbing.

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By John J. Glime
From Salt Lake City, UT
Jan 10, 2008
...
For the sake of argument, aren't you guys just being elitest?

I don't like multi pitch climbs with bolts every 5 feet either, buy who am I to say that they shouldn't exist?

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By Rick Miske
From Orem, UT
Jan 10, 2008
Self Portrait from the Pika Glacier in Alaska (Lit...
For the sake of argument (elitists) ... I'll take you up on that.

I'm freaking ancient, decently in aerobic condition, but way out of strength-to-weight ratio condition, spent a great deal of my early years in landscaping and construction jobs that resulted in my breaking almost every bone in both hands and one wrist at one time or another over a 20 year period, including chip fractures with separated ligaments and tendons. In fact, the last doctor who viewed my xrays said "did you get your hand stuck in a lawn mower or what?". I honestly said "yes".

I took up climbing late in life, and over the course of a year realized I may never ever do anything over a 5.10a. Ever. .... Ever ....

That pretty much limits me to the dozen or so under-5.10 routes at the local gym, like 2 routes in AF canyon, and dozens of trad lines.

I would totally love the convenience of clipping bolts the whole way up, and while 5.4 might be okay if it were a pretty view or something, a ten-pitch 5.7 sport route would be totally rad --- to me.

Normally when I mention my various injuries, weaknesses, and willingness to forever climb < 5.12 routes to climbers they suggest I take up golf or some other non-sport, since there is no future in climbing at that level.

So there is some element of elitism in an answer like that. Very non-supportive. Very "join my secret 5.12 club or you can just go somewhere else". I've never gotten any other answer from any climber I've talked to.

No support of me as an individual or my accessibility requirements:

"Dude, you redpointed that 5.9 in only a day!"
"Hey, you wanna put in a new 3-pitch 5.7? That's a decent line, and Lowes has a sale on bolts."

Anyway, you get the idea.

Not trying to slam anyone, and I would normally not bother with posting to the board, but this thread has been so interesting, and I hate golf.

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By John J. Glime
From Salt Lake City, UT
Jan 10, 2008
...
Great example Rick.

I assume that you know about all of the easy bolted multi pitch lines at the City of Rocks?

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By Jim Gloeckler
From Denver, Colo.
Jan 10, 2008
I think that the term "Sport Climb" is supposed to define a climb that has no real danger from a fall allowable; except getting to the first bolt. Possible fall distance is mostly held to a minimum, while overall fall potential increases. Therein lies the difference between "Sport Climbs" and "bolted routes". Any climb less than 5.8 will probably be bolted as a bolted route not a Sport Climb because most climbers (even newbies) don't fall on moves easier than that. With the above standard, such as in Red Rock Canyon, Colo. Spgs. I think more moderates are always a welcome thing! Afterall, not only are some of us getting old but high end sport climbs sometimes seem to hang out in mid-air with nobody ever on them. I've never seen anyone on Solar Panel (12c) ? at North Table, but that is just one example. The 5.8's are always busy!!

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By Tom Hanson
Jan 10, 2008
Climber Drawing
Jim,
Yes, you have hit my original point on the very head.
I've always noticed that the most moderate (lowest rated route) sport line at every area I've been to has a queue of people standing in line to do it.
Historically, I, and most of the folks I know with a drill, have bolted lines that are challenges for us at the time, and these are usually at the higher grades.
Most climbers who are into the sport enough to invest the hundreds of dollars and hours of work necessary to equip a sport route, are climbing at a higher grade, so subsequently, the sport climbs they equip tend to be in the higher grades.
There has been a lot of feedback on this post where people think that sport routes of a lower grade of difficulty are not needed.
I think that this may be an elitist reaction, rather than fact, as the popularity of "warmup" routes indicate.

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By Buff Johnson
Jan 10, 2008
smiley face
There are some good points here, but essentially it's not the climbers that will decide who has/hasn't is/isn't worthy of climbing certain grades -- it will be up to the land mgr/owner as to the impact they want on their land.

If you go with only high/expert grades, you will weed out potential access & conservation participants; though if you go with also moderate grades you will increase impact. Also to consider, if you don't go with putting fixed pro routes in, quality routes that are still moderate grades could very well still be impacted from popularity & participants will use other means of protection & anchoring, along with social trailing if the option of fixed protection is not available.

The solution is gonna be what is the best balance for a given area, which will ultimately be a decision for the land mgr/owner based on more than climber-only input. I think a balance of fixed protection serves a given area by reducing repeated impacts away from the rock faces.

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By John J. Glime
From Salt Lake City, UT
Jan 10, 2008
...
For those who want long bolted easy slab climbs. The routes on the San Rafael Reef within view of I-70 are really wonderful.

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By Jim Gloeckler
From Denver, Colo.
Jan 10, 2008
Mark,

The land owners usually are not the ones with the drill. Therefore it's a bit late to say they make decisions, other than open or closed!! And to infer that only high end sport routes are better because they recieve less traffic is elitist! But I may have missed your point! I hope that I have missed Shumin Wu's point, wow!

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By Rick Miske
From Orem, UT
Jan 10, 2008
Self Portrait from the Pika Glacier in Alaska (Lit...
Shumin Wu wrote:
The bar for learning to lead on gear is higher, but so is learning to climb harder on bolts. Lacking the commitment to do either is starting to sound like whining in my book.


Um, no amount of "learning" or "commitment" is going to fix my hands.

Depending on my feet, of course, I can hang on one hand for a few seconds (long enough to clip) but unless the route is really easy (standing on a freaking shelf) placing gear can get tiring real quick (I've done it).

Of course, sounds to me like that's just whining, and you'd probably recommend I just learn, commit, or take up golf...

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By caughtinside
From Oakland CA
Jan 10, 2008
Sorry Rick, but I have to take issue with the use of 'accessibility requirements' when applied to climbing. Not sure where the right to this stems from. Climbing is fun because it is hard.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, and I'm sorry the condition of your hands adds more difficulty to climbing, but I don't think it is reasonable to have the personal circumstances of a few people dictate that we have some sort of universal accessibility.

It's good to hear you enjoy climbing. You don't have to do something at a top level to enjoy it. You should hear me sing. Oh wait, no you shouldn't.

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By John J. Glime
From Salt Lake City, UT
Jan 10, 2008
...
caughtinside wrote:
Climbing is fun because it is hard.


For you maybe, but not for everyone.

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