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By Ray Pinpillage
From West Egg
Aug 6, 2013
Cleo's Needle

slim wrote:
Well, 50% of all people are below average intelligence.


And the average lifespan is getting longer which seems to invalidate the correlation between age and wisdom.


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By slim
Administrator
Aug 6, 2013
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

Tony B wrote:
Had that argument before, Lamont. IQ scores are set/defined as a statistically normal Bell curve, with 15 points per standard deviation and the median set at the mean of 100, so actually they are pretty near perfect, as the scoring is crafted to be as such.


yeah, i don't think you see what i am really saying...... kinda like when i say 90% of humanity is in the bottom 10% of humanity.....


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By D.Buffum
Aug 6, 2013
Orgasm Direct, Devil's Lake, 5.11a  c. 2008

slim wrote:
yeah, i don't think you see what i am really saying...... kinda like when i say 90% of humanity is in the bottom 10% of humanity.....


The air is quire rarified where you reside. :)


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By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
Aug 6, 2013
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of Twist of Fate, Oak Creek Canyon. <br /> <br />photo: Blake McCord

slim wrote:
90% of humanity is in the bottom 10% of humanity.....

is that like the pareto rule?


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By J Q
Aug 6, 2013
Me again!

Tony B wrote:
Hmmm. I'm wondering where I stated that, but I can quote where you did. I'm also wondering if you understand what 'pseudo' means, or if perhaps you know the difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist? No less, neither seems particularly relevant here unless we go back to your psychobabble about ego that started the exchange, which would be psychology, not psychiatry, unless you were attempting to prescribe a medication... But I digress. People who use big words that they do not understand are given to making mistakes like that. The same problem fits well within the definition of arrogance. Now is that an insult, or is it merely an observation of truth? Who cares, at least it pertained to something you actually did do/say. In any case, enjoy. I guess if I "win" the joust, and I'm OK with it. Beats the crap out of "loosing" it. Well, 50% of all people are below average intelligence.



You are the absolute master of the long winded self-congratulatory retort filled with nonsense, you have excelled once again, and I bow to you.

But you still need to tell us what size ball you strap and who you roll as to be real ethical climber, seriously.

How on earth you silly people manage to find the motivation to climb without a ball and mask strapped is beyond me. Every time I see someone climb without a ball and a mask my eyes burn. Everyone should climb like me and appreciate what I do, or I may just start crying, whining, and ethicizing. Maybe I will even call you names like stupid, immature, and arrogant if you continue to disagree. Watch out, I just might do it!


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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Aug 6, 2013
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.

J Q wrote:
You are the absolute master of the long winded self-congratulatory retort filled with nonsense, you have excelled once again, and I bow to you.

Good. On your knees B^%#$es!
(That will put some variety in this jousting business.)


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By J Q
Aug 6, 2013
Me again!

Tony B wrote:
Good. On your knees B^%#$es! It'll put some variety in the jousting business.



Your aggressive homosexuality scares me.

You still haven't proved your a real man by disclosing your ball size and mask preference.

Please, before I get on my knees for you I need to know that you are ethically pure. I need to know that your a real man, not some nooby chufflet who can't strap a ball or mask to save his life.


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By CJC
Aug 6, 2013

time to get some new material

this ball and mask shit is played


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By David Sahalie
From on the road again
Aug 6, 2013

J Q wrote:
But you still need to tell us what size ball you strap and who you roll as to be real ethical climber, seriously.





or more like this?



looks like aid me, but I am a noob at these complex ethical debates.

Please advise. I don't want to upset the trad daddy gods and get torn a new one on ST like the retro-bolter-who-shall-not-be-named.


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By slim
Administrator
Aug 6, 2013
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

Darren Mabe wrote:
is that like the pareto rule?

yep, times 10.... and then divided by 11.

actually, i say these things somewhat tongue in cheek. just got back from a great trip to squamish, and i gotta say those canadiens.... like 90% are in the top 10%. they are so nice.


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By kirra
Aug 6, 2013

slim wrote:
and i gotta say those canadiens.... like 90% are in the top 10%. they are so nice.

+1 (btw sp= canadians :)

my balls come in a 6-pack!!


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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Aug 6, 2013
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.

J Q wrote:
Your aggressive homosexuality scares me. You still haven't proved your a real man by disclosing your ball size and mask preference. Please, before I get on my knees for you I need to know that you are ethically pure. I need to know that your a real man, not some nooby chufflet who can't strap a ball or mask to save his life.


Sorry I scared you. I am not pure at all. Ask my wife.
Or anyone else who actually knows me, for that matter:
master of ceremonies <br />
master of ceremonies


I am not put off by closet types and homophobes. I've dealt with rednecks all my life. So I must ask - Ball-mask or ball-gag? What exactly is it that you are used to?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejeW00YcZIc‎
Bring Out the Gimp!

Now, I kind of expect you to RE with a certain other video clip - dude, it's a total soft pitch. Go ahead, you need a win right now.

Oh, and as for your other questions about size and such - no need to speculate. Go into your local 'bookstore' and do some research...
This has been hashed out before and I am pretty comfortable with myself.


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By kirra
Aug 6, 2013

Tony B wrote:
I am not pure at all. Ask my wife. Or anyone else who actually knows me, for that matter:


Boys Gone Wild..!!! <br />Mp.Beer Night, Boulder,CO
Boys Gone Wild..!!!
Mp.Beer Night, Boulder,CO


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By J Q
Aug 6, 2013
Me again!

CJC wrote:
time to get some new material this ball and mask shit is played



Not as played as old trad's arguing ethics using tradition. Now that shit is played.

No need for new material, the only people not getting the argument and getting upset instead of entertained are ego driven tarded troglodytes.


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By David Barbour
From Charlotte, NC
Aug 6, 2013

J Q, by your extreme version of this argument, anyone could go anywhere and bolt anything, chop anything, etc. Nothing should be preserved. While we're at it, let's convert Angkor Wat into a Wal-Mart. See how this extremity can go both ways?

I'd love to hear your true opinion, but I suspect you're too scared to step out from your protective veil of irony.


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By slim
Administrator
Aug 6, 2013
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

kirra wrote:
+1 (btw sp= canadians :) my balls come in a 6-pack!!


my spelling is getting really bad. i'm not sure if i was thinking canadian english, canadien french, or murican when i rote that.


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By kirra
Aug 6, 2013

no worries slim -maybe mp spellcheck not working


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By Cor
Aug 6, 2013
black nasty

Picking on Slim is like slim pickings... Ya don't get the chance very often! ;)


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By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
Aug 6, 2013
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of Twist of Fate, Oak Creek Canyon. <br /> <br />photo: Blake McCord

Tony. what i want to know is how do you get that Midnight Lightning into your chest hair!?


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By kirra
Aug 6, 2013

Cor wrote:
Picking on Slim is like slim pickings... Ya don't get the chance very often! ;)

lucky me LOL !

Mabe I don't see no lightning bolt in my photo what body part do you have?


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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Aug 7, 2013
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.

Darren Mabe wrote:
Tony. what i want to know is how do you get that Midnight Lightning into your chest hair!?

You forgot already?
Ouch!


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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Aug 20, 2013
Bucky

FYI, I also posted the text below on the actual Archangel page in the hope that it will heighten the chance that Mr. Weidner sees and takes into account all of the support he has before considering what to do about the bolts.

Before commencing with my useless drivel below, I wanted to make two things clear. First, I don't know Mr. Weidner or any of his friends, so I really don't have a dog in this fight other than the future of the route. And second, what I write below is not meant to offend Mr. Byrne or to take anything away from his initial experiences with this route.

A few weeks ago I went up to climb Archangel to both check out the route and to see if this thing might actually be a reasonable, ground up lead on gear. I brought all of my HB brass and cams down to a black Alien and below is my take on the route.

First of all, this route is awesome and I have to give credit to Mr. Byrne for scoping the line and putting in the initial effort to send it. In particular, the transition from liebacking the edge of the arete to the stance below the roof is classic. That said, I don't believe that this route was ever "sent" (at least not using any traditional metric of what it means to send a route). When I got to the anchor that Mr. Weidner installed, I stepped out right onto the climbing where the route was originally intended to proceed (i.e. to the location that Mr. Byrne placed his anchor). Upon doing so, I feel that it is safe to say that Mr. Weidner's assessment of the grade to Mr. Byrne's original anchor is correct, say something in the 13c/d range. This leads one to the obvious conclusion: Mr. Byrne intended to finish up at his anchor, but couldn't, so he lowered off of a fixed pin just before the crack peters out near the end of the undercling section. So what does that mean? That means that Mr. Byrne spent 2-3 months toprope wiring a route and installing some sparse fixed gear. He then led it to the point that he could climb no further and then lowered off. I can't understand how this in any way constitutes a sent route. Moreover, even if one could argue that lowering off of a fixed pin part of the way up a route counts as FA'ing the route, there is still the issue of how this route was put up.

First of all this route was put up top down. Now this of course is just fine, but it clearly negates any argument that folks like Mr. Long have made regarding respecting "ballsy" ground up ascents. I think that virtually anyone with a shred of grey matter would concede that wiring a route on toprope and then installing fixed gear that is utterly inadequate for a ground up ascent is simply not a style of climbing that is common nor accepted amongst a huge majority of the community. So that leads me to address climbing this thing ground up with gear and/or some of the fixed protection.

Beginning at the ledge after the first 30 feet of climbing, here is what you can place using clean gear. At the first bolt you can slot a couple of small to medium sized brass HB's off to the left. They would lead to a less pleasant fall than the bolt, but you would be okay. At the second bolt - where you really need protection to keep you from breaking your ankles on the ledge - you would have to be a fool to place anything behind that rotten rock (I tried to get a black Alien just to check, but couldn't get it in...the crack is just too small). And this is after Mr. Weidner cleaned out the worst loose rock out of this section. I sort of shudder to think of what was there before because as it is now, I was trying to minimize how hard I pulled on the flake getting past the second bolt. A bolt or two beyond, you can again get a couple pieces of gear (medium sized nut and a red Camalot), though the two pieces of gear are close enough to each other that it would really only eliminate one bolt at best. After that, there is no more gear until after you pull the crux roof, at which point you may be able to get a couple of marginal micro cams in the flared undercling crack.

So what does this all mean? It means that if the bolts on this thing get removed, the route will become a 12c R/X route that nobody ever climbs. The proof that this is the case is the simple fact this route has not seen a single ascent since it was toproped 25 years ago. And what about doing it the style of the first toprope runs? I guess that means that you need to rap in and toprope the route until you are comfortable soloing it. You then clip the runout gear, which is largely irrelevant at this point because you have it so wired you can solo it. The climbing community actually has a word for doing a route in this style. Its called contrived. Contrived as in, you purposely made the route dangerous with fixed protection despite the fact that you could have done so differently. If you are doing it ground up and placing bolts at the stances, then fine, you did what you could. But installing R/X on rappel? Contrived. And no, this doesn't count as a headpoint because bolts were installed. If Mr. Byrne wanted to headpoint it, he would get the two brass nuts at the start, the red Camalot 10 feet higher, and then perhaps a marginal micro cam to lower off of at the end. What that means is that unless you can onsight solo 12c, you are going to either get totally f*cked up or die trying to do this route ground up. Sh*t, given the suspect nature of the potential flared microcam placements at the "end" of the route, you better also be comfortable down-soloing this thing because if those cams pull while lowering, you are definitely gonna be a sack of slush after you hit the ground. Does that sound like anything other than a stupidly protected X-rated route? And this is what Mr. Long and the armchair SuperTaco crowd are mounting a heated defense over?

In conclusion, I think that it is pretty clear that the bolts should stay. Or at a minimum, all of the bolts minus the two gear placements should stay. And I don't think that I am anywhere close to the only one who thinks this. And to all of the folks above who called Mr. Weidner a punter etc., how do you explain the words of support that the local crowd has expressed in Mr. Weidner's defense? Contrary to your chest pounding rants, some of us who are defending the bolts are not the punters that you would make us out to be. How about you look into the background of some of the people you are talking down to before you spout off so strongly. Go take a look at the names here and on the Archangel forum thread (see here: www.mountainproject.com/v/archangel/108266778__2) that are supporting Mr. Weidner: Ted Lanzano, Tank Evans, Pinklebear, Blake Herrington to name but a few...these are not exactly the wanker sportos that your misplaced rants are intended for now are they?

And finally, to Mr. Long. I can't help but express to you how disappointing it was to read your comments. I have always enjoyed your writing and your books. You can weave in all of the big words you want from your copy of Roget's, but it can't change the fact that your machismo laced ball sack statements are embarrassing at best.


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By Will S
From Joshua Tree
Aug 20, 2013

Well said Albers, and thanks for the first hand account.


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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Aug 20, 2013
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.

So, Albers - hypothetical question - and I am sure you will see where I am going with this.
IF Mr Byrne had moved the bolts down to the point where he lowered after leading to that point, then would it be a route - just a shorter one?


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By J Q
Aug 20, 2013
Me again!

J. Albers wrote:
You can weave in all of the big words you want from your copy of Roget's, but it can't change the fact that your machismo laced ball sack statements are embarrassing at best.



I hope you are not referring to my machismo laced ball sack statements because they are all the rage. This is the future of climbing.


It puts the balls in the sack before it sends the route or it get's the hose!

Period. This is the new style. Do you want the hose?

If you respond to this comment I will assume you want the hose.



Tony B wrote:
So, Albers - hypothetical question - and I am sure you will see where I am going with this. IF Mr Byrne had moved the bolts down to the point where he lowered after leading to that point, then would it be a route - just a shorter one?



Yes, and we could bolt the extension, while still call him a pussy for head-pointing a route that he bolted like a moron. Finally we could re bolt the tarded route into a good route that the community can use.


Is this a serious question?

Really?

Shall we begin again?


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