APM - Auto-lock Pass-through Munter

AMP

AKA the Ouray Belay, this is an option for climbers who like to belay with auto-lock belay devices when the situation requires lowering from the top. It addresses the challenges of lowering a partner on auto-lock devices.
1. Lower climber from the top using the Munter to desired distance.
2. Remove the Munter.
3. Belay as usual with auto-lock device.

Brillant!
Did you devise this technique?

Why not add one of those new smaller Grigris to the brakestrand so that if the reverso gets jammed up against a rock so that it's open and your hands are busy making pb&j sandwiches it will still hold the second.

Do you just remove the munter as they start climbing and remove tension from the line? Seems like you could perhaps get your hand sucked into the belay device in a bad way if they fall while you do that, but maybe I'm visualizing it wrong.

This looks very interesting. In my experience, the lowering system that is incorporated in the reverso-like devices does not work the best for lowering long distances because it seems to be either completely open or completely closed unless moderated very precisely (much more so when the ropes are wet).
My first reaction is that it might be tough to only lower a climber part of the way down a climb, which is often the case in a place like Ouray, but of course if this was the case you could just belay them up on the Munter.
My next reaction is that a gri-gri type device would serve the same purpose as the system, but a wet rope in a gri-gri can make for a trumatic lower for the climber. Also, it requires you be 'behind' the gri-gri, which can be really awkward for many of the TRs in Ouray, and not to mention those devices can be a little more $$$ than your new BMW back in Boulder will allow.
Toby, I see what your saying but I don't think that would be much of an issue if the climber is lowering to the ground, unless there are bottomless pits of despair to fall into at the base of your climb.
I'm excited to experiment with this, and I'm curious how/where else people will use it.

can you set it up or take it apart if the line is tensioned?

thats the biggest issue with autoblock IMO ...

I was confused about how this would be used. I guess it makes a lot more sense if it's just used for top rope climbs that are inaccessible from the bottom, huh? =)

ah, another entry for the rube goldberg competition.

you could simply set up the auto-lock as it was designed, which includes a feature to allow for lowering.

Certainly you could use the device (my preference is the Guide) and pulley it open so to lower; however in those long lowers you can control the lowering better by being direct off the anchor and without fighting the load, which gets old fast.

There's a simpler approach without using the munter. Just clip both belay device biners to the anchor, take another high point on the anchor and clip a third biner and use that as a frictional redirect. I believe it's called plaquetting. Bonus, you don't need to subject your rope to repeated loaded muntering.

You can also run this with a gri and redirect, but I feel the smoothest control is the plaquette using the Guide.

With either the munter or the plaquette config, you basically lower until it's unweighted, otherwise you'll need to set a ratchet hitch so you can make the mid-wall transition to belaying a seconding climber into the auto-lock mode; or if they can, climb and unweight the system so you can switch over. The gri doesn't have this mid-wall transition concern.

Why not just use the MH? Overcomplication leads directly to mishap in my experience. It seems that if someone is solid in the MH or Reverso, they'll be able to lower and TR belay form the top.

Your set up is stupid. just teach folks how to use the gear they have fully.

T-bob

lowering in from the top is retarded. just tie in, rap, pull up the slack and go. quite a few people have decked in the park while being lowered in from the top.

Kevin Connolly wrote:lowering in from the top is retarded. just tie in, rap, pull up the slack and go. quite a few people have decked in the park while being lowered in from the top.

who said anything about lowering in from the top? there are scenarios that may require you to lower your second mid-pitch.

Crag Dweller wrote: who said anything about lowering in from the top? there are scenarios that may require you to lower your second mid-pitch.

id love to know how you can set up the OPs original system ... mid pitch, with a tensioned rope ...

id just set up the normal lower on the guide ... or belay with a redirect

Though I may be retarded when getting some safe mileage, I'm really good looking at it.

What are the ushba users? commie-pigs??

this setup only really works for lowering from the top, it would be broken down by mid pitch, if you think you will have to lower mid pitch use a redirect, grigri, or find a better partner.
ushbas are cool, no need to be lowered in, if you blow it its your own fault.

I dont get it?

NM i get it now...

Has any device in the history of climbing gear generated so many complicated work-arounds for all the things it doesn't do well?

The only thing it doesn't do well is lower. None of the (good) workarounds are complicated. OMG! I have to redirect the brake strand through a munter, how can I climb when my mind is being taxed so much.

Did people bitch this much about the horrors of using guide plates before the internet?

^ ^ ^ ^
+1

I belayed from top & down using a Guide, yet again, nobody died.

Shock and awe

Thanks for the interesting conversation. My intent for posting the APM was to put it out there, not to advocate for it.

The APM works fine for partial pitch lowers by releasing the Munter as the climber begins climbing and un-weights the rope.

I can imagine getting a finger caught in the auto-lock - that would suck! Never thought of that...

One thing we noticed is that it can be easy to miss-thread the auto-lock device ending up with the break strand on top. Not in and of its self a fatal error but if the belayer treats the miss-threaded device as if in auto-lock mode and lets go of the break strand the climber could be dropped. I think this is the #1 concern with the APM.