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Anyone have problems lowering a second with ATC Guide or Reverso in Guide Mode?

Original Post
Puzman puziss · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 45

Apparently there was an accident at the gunks this past weekend when a leader was lowering his second with an ATC Guide in guide mode.

gunks.com/ubbthreads7/ubbth…

When the leader released the ATC, the second dropped suddenly, causing injuries to her and burns to the leader's brake hand. (See his post on Pg. 4. Looks like he may have mis-used the device, but I'm not trying to cast blame here). I've found that lowering with either Guide or Reverso3, using a 'biner through the small hole and gradually applying pressure, gives a pretty smooth lowering of the second (FWIW, I'm using double ropes). Anyone else care to share their experience with these devices? I like 'em, but would consider going back to standard ATC if there's a real safety concern here.

Mark Cushman · · Cumming, GA · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 980
Here is a link directly to the first-hand account

What the leader did wrong was to NOT redirect the brake strand(s) before lowering. To lower using an ATC Guide in autoblock mode:

1. Redirect the brake strand(s) through a higher point on the anchor
2. Add prusik/autoblock backup on the brake strand(s) to your harness
3. Use sling on appropriate hole to release autoblock mode on the ATC Guide

Eli's video here shows this:

youtube.com/watch?v=G3zOisW…
Mark Cushman · · Cumming, GA · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 980

Just a side note, in Eli's video he shows setting up the release sling and clipping it to his harness FIRST, which IMO should not be done. At this point if you were to slip or load that sling the second would fall until you unweighted the sling. It is best to set up the belay strand redirect with an autoblock backup first, then lastly clip the unweighting sling to your harness.

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

There's an easier and more controlled way to do a lower-only then to climb; but works best if you can go from unweighted safe-spot to unweighted safe-spot.

I asked in the recent reverso topic, but nobody has indicated an interest in it. Also noted, that it may work best with a BD Guide, though I haven't tried the new R3. So any interest in it here? I may need to take some better pics with someone; unless anyone else has it lined out & ready to post.

Mark Cushman · · Cumming, GA · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 980
Mark Nelson wrote:There's an easier and more controlled way to do a lower-only then to climb; but works best if you can go from unweighted safe-spot to unweighted safe-spot. I asked in the recent reverso topic, but nobody has indicated an interest in it.
Lay it on us, man!
Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

I'll see what I can do for pics so you can see the climbers & the up-close on the rigging.

With these capture devices getting used predominantly now; it should serve well, & to mention any weight disadvantage is leveled out so the belayer doesn't need to fight the system on a lower. Which is probably what happens, they pop the system open and can't control the load. Though Keith's teachings are obviously solid; if you did what the above video shows, you can control the load & switch methods mid-wall at any time.

Puzman puziss · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 45

Petzl doesn't show any re-direct in their product info for the R3:

petzl.com/files/all/en/Prod…

Looks like you just put the nose of a 'biner through the small hole, then apply leverage gradually. In the words of Dustin Hoffman's dentist, "Iz it Safe?"

Sunny-D · · SLC, Utah · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 700

I think the problem is (and probably why Petzl does not show how to do a lower in guide mode on the Reverso) that the lowering feature of the devise is supposed to be for emergencies only--not as a standard lowering device... I think that is also why so many people are being dropped with the ATC-Guide and Reverso in guide mode.
I was in Ouray this winter when a guy dropped his partner into the bottom of the canyon using the ATC- guide for lowering. He made the comment "I use it this way all the time". Like I said my understanding is that lowering with a Autoblock device is supposed to be for emergencies only. If you want to lower with an ATC-Guide/Reverso device you need to set it up in regular mode and redirect the rope through another locking carabiner. A GriGri or Cinch work well for this too. I think to many people are using a great tool for the wrong purpose. My $.02

Edit...After watching the Eli video above He does a really good job of showing how to turn the guide into a redirected plate without changing things around. Good Job.

Eli Helmuth · · Ciales, PR · Joined Aug 2001 · Points: 3,441

FWIW
The AMGA teaches the 're-directed' lowering technique and it's used regularly to lower a person on any plate(reverso, atc, etc) belay device (whether auto-blocking or not) set-up in 'normal' belay mode directly off the anchor, typically with a back-up.
The re-directed plate is usually the preferred method to lower a person and I detail it on one of the videos in our technical video series here.
Belaying directly off the anchor with a munter is the next most favored lowering method and a belayer can easily switch directions between lower to belay-up without changing the set-up or having to buy any fancy devices.
Using an ATC Guide or Reverso in auto-block mode to lower or a gri-gri directly off the anchor are less easy methods. The AMGA teaches re-directing the brake hand on a gri-gri lower off the anchor.

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492

As I recall, completely letting go of the brake strand - as the guy in that video CLEARLY does - would be an instant failure of an AMGA assessment. There is no stopper knot, the device is not muled off etc etc.

usernameremoved · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2007 · Points: 25
Gunkiemike wrote:As I recall, completely letting go of the brake strand - as the guy in that video CLEARLY does - would be an instant failure of an AMGA assessment. There is no stopper knot, the device is not muled off etc etc.
Do you mean when he is setting up the brake redirect/sling? I noticed this too. I don't know anything about the AMGA exam, but think it should be backed up before you start reconfiguring the system. Would a simple knot/hitch clipped with a 'biner just below the device (on the brake side) suffice?
Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
mcdbrendan wrote: Do you mean when he is setting up the brake redirect/sling? I noticed this too. I don't know anything about the AMGA exam, but think it should be backed up before you start reconfiguring the system. Would a simple knot/hitch clipped with a 'biner just below the device (on the brake side) suffice?
Yes, anything within a couple meters of the device, just to prevent a big "Whoops" accident.

I just checked my AMGA Tech Handbook, and there's not much in there re. going totally hands-free with blocking devices. I know the guy who assessed me wouldn't approve of letting go, but maybe it's up to the individual instructor. I would never do it on purpose, let alone demonstrate it, but then I'm not at all a fan of these devices.
Kenny Powell · · Colorado · Joined May 2009 · Points: 0

I saw a guy drop his buddy in ouray, colo. In February by using this poor technique. In my opinion guide mode is only for the second NOT lowering. My advice lower in normal mode with a redirect and if you need to stop tie off. If your partner is not comfortable or does not know how to tie off, do not climb with them. Or use a gri gri

Eli Helmuth · · Ciales, PR · Joined Aug 2001 · Points: 3,441

Let's not be silly folks about all this "would have failed an exam bs". I can't write the many pages on my I-touch that it would take to describe why letting go of the brake hand is an acceptable technique with these devices- certainly tying a back-up knot in the brake side isn't an issue either...very few rules, but judgment based decision making which is more pro vs. Con, rarely black or white.

C Scariot · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 0

eli - wouldn't concern myself too much with the comments above. too many folks on this site seem to linger around waiting for the opportunity to criticize or (attempt to) correct, whether they know what they're talking about, or not... so much for trying to be helpful, eh?

ashoemak Shoemaker · · Erie, CO · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 0

Out of curiosity, why is it so important to redirect the brake strand up through the anchor? I understand that your doing this to bend the rope back around the device and increase the friction to add control as if belaying normally. However, when the device is set up in auto-locking mode, you have the friction from the weighted rope on the break rope. So why couldn't you set up the back up on your harness and the break rope, attach the sling to the device and redirect down to your harness, and then SLOWLY weight your harness only relieving enough friction from the weighted rope to allow lowering? Basically using the friction from the weighted rope instead of bending it back around the device. I have done this before in a situation and felt like I had total control.

usernameremoved · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2007 · Points: 25

Didn't mean any offense or to question your "guide-hood." I know from experience with the setup that when locked down its solid. But, a simple step like a safety knot isn't too much to back it up completely. Like I said, I have no knowledge of AMGA tests or anything, so I cant comment.

I know setting up the redirect I move around a lot setting up, and if my follower ever stood up on a ledge or got back on the wall, a knot would make me feel a bit better.

Just my .02, I know we all do it differently.

blakeherrington · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 1,113

To avoid all the extra "fuss" of adding a sling, re-directing, tieing off, slippage, etc etc...

To lower a second climber, just crank up and down on the locking belay carabiner that is under tension. Each time you ratchet this, it will let a couple inches slip, and usually you can lower your second back down to a stance faster than you would have been able to grab another sling or piece of cord off your harness.

They never come off the auto-lock method, and you're ready to roll as soon as they can get back on the rock.

I wrote up a handy little how-to for these kinds of devices - Tips for Autolocking belay devices

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

Here's a rigging progression that works well with a BD Guide. It keeps the belayer out of the pulley problem. If you know a safe spot will be attained and system can be unweighted, this works really well.

Top Lower Rig with BD Guide

Moving from top left to bottom right, the pics show typical autoblock to a lower system, back to typical autoblock.

Reasoning for throwing this out here is discussion of what works efficiently to perform a safe lower in a top-site type situation like ouray; the ability to control a load is wonderfully better than working a pulley. And, mostly, I'd rather not see another climber get dropped because of an unexpected loss of load control.

However, this setup introduces a problem for mid-wall weight transfer if you need to do one. You'll probably need to introduce a hitch and load that so you can switch out back to the autoblock. And, this rig is an open system, be aware of that.

Will Gordon · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 5

I like Mark's progression for an unweighted transfer from plaquette mode to lowering mode. Here's a slight twist:

If you have the luxury of an extra locker or two, you can use one to connect the belaying carabiner (the one in contact with the rope) to the master point. Then unclip the one the device is hung from. Doing it this way means you never have to open the "belay carabiner". This is assuming you have already redirected and applied a friction hitch back-up. I can try and take some pictures if people are interested.

Erik W · · Santa Cruz, CA · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 280
Eli Helmuth wrote:I can't write the many pages on my I-touch that it would take to describe why letting go of the brake hand is an acceptable technique with these devices...
Ha... best line in the thread. Eli's out w/carpal tunnel from getting involved in [fill in the blank] thread on MP.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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