Anyone have problems lowering a second with ATC Guide or Reverso in Guide Mode?
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Apparently there was an accident at the gunks this past weekend when a leader was lowering his second with an ATC Guide in guide mode. |
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Here is a link directly to the first-hand account
What the leader did wrong was to NOT redirect the brake strand(s) before lowering. To lower using an ATC Guide in autoblock mode: 1. Redirect the brake strand(s) through a higher point on the anchor 2. Add prusik/autoblock backup on the brake strand(s) to your harness 3. Use sling on appropriate hole to release autoblock mode on the ATC Guide Eli's video here shows this: youtube.com/watch?v=G3zOisW… |
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Just a side note, in Eli's video he shows setting up the release sling and clipping it to his harness FIRST, which IMO should not be done. At this point if you were to slip or load that sling the second would fall until you unweighted the sling. It is best to set up the belay strand redirect with an autoblock backup first, then lastly clip the unweighting sling to your harness. |
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There's an easier and more controlled way to do a lower-only then to climb; but works best if you can go from unweighted safe-spot to unweighted safe-spot. |
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Mark Nelson wrote:There's an easier and more controlled way to do a lower-only then to climb; but works best if you can go from unweighted safe-spot to unweighted safe-spot. I asked in the recent reverso topic, but nobody has indicated an interest in it.Lay it on us, man! |
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I'll see what I can do for pics so you can see the climbers & the up-close on the rigging. |
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Petzl doesn't show any re-direct in their product info for the R3: |
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I think the problem is (and probably why Petzl does not show how to do a lower in guide mode on the Reverso) that the lowering feature of the devise is supposed to be for emergencies only--not as a standard lowering device... I think that is also why so many people are being dropped with the ATC-Guide and Reverso in guide mode. |
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FWIW |
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As I recall, completely letting go of the brake strand - as the guy in that video CLEARLY does - would be an instant failure of an AMGA assessment. There is no stopper knot, the device is not muled off etc etc. |
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Gunkiemike wrote:As I recall, completely letting go of the brake strand - as the guy in that video CLEARLY does - would be an instant failure of an AMGA assessment. There is no stopper knot, the device is not muled off etc etc.Do you mean when he is setting up the brake redirect/sling? I noticed this too. I don't know anything about the AMGA exam, but think it should be backed up before you start reconfiguring the system. Would a simple knot/hitch clipped with a 'biner just below the device (on the brake side) suffice? |
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mcdbrendan wrote: Do you mean when he is setting up the brake redirect/sling? I noticed this too. I don't know anything about the AMGA exam, but think it should be backed up before you start reconfiguring the system. Would a simple knot/hitch clipped with a 'biner just below the device (on the brake side) suffice?Yes, anything within a couple meters of the device, just to prevent a big "Whoops" accident. I just checked my AMGA Tech Handbook, and there's not much in there re. going totally hands-free with blocking devices. I know the guy who assessed me wouldn't approve of letting go, but maybe it's up to the individual instructor. I would never do it on purpose, let alone demonstrate it, but then I'm not at all a fan of these devices. |
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I saw a guy drop his buddy in ouray, colo. In February by using this poor technique. In my opinion guide mode is only for the second NOT lowering. My advice lower in normal mode with a redirect and if you need to stop tie off. If your partner is not comfortable or does not know how to tie off, do not climb with them. Or use a gri gri |
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Let's not be silly folks about all this "would have failed an exam bs". I can't write the many pages on my I-touch that it would take to describe why letting go of the brake hand is an acceptable technique with these devices- certainly tying a back-up knot in the brake side isn't an issue either...very few rules, but judgment based decision making which is more pro vs. Con, rarely black or white. |
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eli - wouldn't concern myself too much with the comments above. too many folks on this site seem to linger around waiting for the opportunity to criticize or (attempt to) correct, whether they know what they're talking about, or not... so much for trying to be helpful, eh? |
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Out of curiosity, why is it so important to redirect the brake strand up through the anchor? I understand that your doing this to bend the rope back around the device and increase the friction to add control as if belaying normally. However, when the device is set up in auto-locking mode, you have the friction from the weighted rope on the break rope. So why couldn't you set up the back up on your harness and the break rope, attach the sling to the device and redirect down to your harness, and then SLOWLY weight your harness only relieving enough friction from the weighted rope to allow lowering? Basically using the friction from the weighted rope instead of bending it back around the device. I have done this before in a situation and felt like I had total control. |
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Didn't mean any offense or to question your "guide-hood." I know from experience with the setup that when locked down its solid. But, a simple step like a safety knot isn't too much to back it up completely. Like I said, I have no knowledge of AMGA tests or anything, so I cant comment. |
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To avoid all the extra "fuss" of adding a sling, re-directing, tieing off, slippage, etc etc... |
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Here's a rigging progression that works well with a BD Guide. It keeps the belayer out of the pulley problem. If you know a safe spot will be attained and system can be unweighted, this works really well. |
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I like Mark's progression for an unweighted transfer from plaquette mode to lowering mode. Here's a slight twist: |
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Eli Helmuth wrote:I can't write the many pages on my I-touch that it would take to describe why letting go of the brake hand is an acceptable technique with these devices...Ha... best line in the thread. Eli's out w/carpal tunnel from getting involved in [fill in the blank] thread on MP. |