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By Tipton
Jan 25, 2012

camhead wrote:
I actually do use a sort of sloper at the very end of my workout, it's a large, 45 degree downward sloping edge on an old Metolius board that is big enough to get your whole palm on. I mostly only hang on it with 2 1/2 or 2 pads, though, so it's not really what one would think of as a "sloper."


My anecdotal experience with hangboarding on slopers is in line with Monomaniac - not worth the time and energy.

When I started hangboarding I used a large sloper for the last set. Once I got to 50 lbs of weight I quit training that grip, I did note that I was able to hang one handed on it whereas before I was never able to.

Fast forward several months, I haven't touched that grip at all and can still easily hang one handed from it. I would be willing to bet that I can still do my previous max.

It seems like training other grips (edges, crimps, pockets) is at minimum allowing me to maintain the sloper strength and possibly improving it.


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By Kevin Stricker
From Evergreen, CO
Jan 26, 2012

Great stuff here guys, getting me motivated to build a new hang board.

Regarding the 1.5" campus crack, I found out from personal experience that it is a bad idea. I built one in one of my first walls over 15 years ago that really helped teach me tight hands, but then we started campusing the thing as a party trick. Anyways I either dislocated or broke a small bone in my hand campusing it one day and to this day a bone in my hand pops out of alignment when I do lots of hammering or crack climbing. Basically a big knot forms about 3/4 of the way between my first nuckle and wrist and hurts like hell tell it gets back in alignment.


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By camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
Jan 26, 2012
You stay away from mah pig!

Kevin Stricker wrote:
Great stuff here guys, getting me motivated to build a new hang board. Regarding the 1.5" campus crack, I found out from personal experience that it is a bad idea. I built one in one of my first walls over 15 years ago that really helped teach me tight hands, but then we started campusing the thing as a party trick. Anyways I either dislocated or broke a small bone in my hand campusing it one day and to this day a bone in my hand pops out of alignment when I do lots of hammering or crack climbing. Basically a big knot forms about 3/4 of the way between my first nuckle and wrist and hurts like hell tell it gets back in alignment.


Whoa, good to know. I am still intrigued at some sort of crack training system, just in order to isolate sizes that you're bad at, but maybe trying to campus those sizes would be a bit much. And in the end, crack climbing tends to be more about technique than pure physical strength. Most strong crack climbers today are strong sport climbers who transition over to cracks fairly easy, and I'd imagine without any specialized training (with the notable exception of those British Wide Boyz and their basement offwidth).

Regarding the sloper discussions above, I skipped the slopers last night, and, for my final grip, I instead just used a simple, biggish, slightly incut edge (comfortable one pad). Because of the incut, I didn't constantly have the feeling of squelching off that I'd been getting around the 3rd or 4th reps on the sloper, but with 20 lbs on and at the end of the night, it still took me to the point of total muscle failure by the final set. So, more productive, I think.

One more question, while we're at it: what do y'all think of barbell finger rolls?


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By slim
Administrator
Jan 26, 2012
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

i'll try to get some pics of my crack stuff in the next few days. i agree that crack climbing is very technique dependent, but at some point you get diminishing returns on working on technique (ie when your technique gets to a certain level how much better can your technique get?). a good thing about the crack devices is that you can work on both at the same time. also, you can get a head start on desert season and not have to waste a few trips getting dialed in.


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By Tipton
Jan 26, 2012

camhead wrote:
Whoa, good to know. I am still intrigued at some sort of crack training system, just in order to isolate sizes that you're bad at, but maybe trying to campus those sizes would be a bit much. And in the end, crack climbing tends to be more about technique than pure physical strength. Most strong crack climbers today are strong sport climbers who transition over to cracks fairly easy, and I'd imagine without any specialized training (with the notable exception of those British Wide Boyz and their basement offwidth). Regarding the sloper discussions above, I skipped the slopers last night, and, for my final grip, I instead just used a simple, biggish, slightly incut edge (comfortable one pad). Because of the incut, I didn't constantly have the feeling of squelching off that I'd been getting around the 3rd or 4th reps on the sloper, but with 20 lbs on and at the end of the night, it still took me to the point of total muscle failure by the final set. So, more productive, I think. One more question, while we're at it: what do y'all think of barbell finger rolls?


I did them for awhile, but was also just starting back at hangboarding and other training so I can't isolate what caused my improvements. I never felt like they were doing anything for me, it just didn't seem to be effective. I think doing a one rep max on a few hangboard grips is a better option and I am seeing positive results with them. I can add 2.5 - 5 lbs pretty consistently and am adding a staggering amount of weight on for my smallest hold.


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By camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
Jan 26, 2012
You stay away from mah pig!

slim wrote:
i'll try to get some pics of my crack stuff in the next few days. i agree that crack climbing is very technique dependent, but at some point you get diminishing returns on working on technique (ie when your technique gets to a certain level how much better can your technique get?). a good thing about the crack devices is that you can work on both at the same time. also, you can get a head start on desert season and not have to waste a few trips getting dialed in.


Yeah, I agree. And crack technique seems much more binary, "either you have it or you don't" than, say, slab technique.

I haven't been back to the Creek in nearly five years (damn, it's been that long?), but I've improved as a climber in nearly every way since I moved out East; power, strength, endurance, even crack technique in some ways. It would be interesting to go back to the Creek and see if my RRG endurance actually helps on crack endurance.


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By Monomaniac
Administrator
From Morrison, CO
Jan 26, 2012
Pulling a small roof at 2/3 height on Mission Impossible.  Adam Sanders photo.

camhead wrote:
One more question, while we're at it: what do y'all think of barbell finger rolls?


www.mountainproject.com/scripts/Search?query=heavy+finger+ro>>>


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By Jorde
From Barcelona
Jan 26, 2012
Sativa Patatica A Vista

The training threads have definitely been interesting lately, and I want to throw another idea out there. I’m not sure I buy repeaters as the best way to increase finger strength (or Hyp or whatever). I say this because of all the training materials I have read, I can’t find many recommendations for using repeaters for finger strength other than the Rockprodigy article, the Beastmaker site, and Eric Horst.

On the other hand there is a ton of really good climbers and trainers who use short single hangs of 5-10” with 2-3’ of rest between. I think this has been discussed before and it has been suggested that these shorter hangs might be considered Max R and not Hyp, but I don’t see any other training plans making that distinction and most refer to deadhangs simply as developing finger strength. For example Reini Scherer (trainer for Innsbruck competition team) and David Macia (trained Edu Marin, Ramon Julian, and Victor Esteller) recommend doing around 20 total hangs, each for 5-10” with a few minutes between. Eva Lopez reduces it a bit more and recommends doing just 3-5 hangs in half-crimp, about 10” each with 2-3’ rest between and that’s it! In fact she even designed a hangboard specifically for use with this method. UK strongmen Rich Simpson, Ben Moon, and Dave Macleod also are on board with the short single hang philosophy. Of course for all of these programs deadhangs are just one aspect along with regimented climbing and other exercises. Here are some of the resources I’m talking about:

David Macia: www.amazon.com/Planificación-del-entrenamiento-escalada-depo>>>

Reini Scherer (look at #10): translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl>>>

Eva Lopez: eva-lopez.blogspot.com/

Moonclimbing: www.moonclimbing.com/fingerboard-training-plan-c-334_353.htm>>> and www.urbanclimbermag.com/themag/beta/workshop_-_26_-_hang_tim>>>

It seems like the extensive Hyp plans that I’ve seen here on MP are not used by any of these really good climbers/trainers. I think it might make sense if people did not have access to a climbing gym, but I don’t think that is the case. So what’s the dealio? What is the benefit of repeaters compared to short single hangs?

Also, some might find this interesting. Add more weight or use a smaller hold? Eva Lopez did a small study and found that climbers who used a larger hold with more weight for 4 weeks then used a smaller hold with less weight for the next four weeks had better improvement on both maximum hangs and endurance hangs compared to those who did the opposite (small first 4 wks, then big with weight second 4 wks): eva-lopez.blogspot.com/2009/05/entrenamiento-de-fuerza-de-de>>>


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By JLP
From The Internet
Jan 26, 2012

Jorde wrote:
It seems like the extensive Hyp plans that I’ve seen here on MP are not used by any of these really good climbers/trainers.

That's kind of where my head is at here as well.

I'm aware of the Anderson resumes (sample of 2), but there are also a lot of 11's and 12's in the profiles above - not exactly elite - just has to be said to keep things honest here, IMO. Lots of 12 and 13 climbers out there who basically just climb.

My related question - if you have truly trained hypertrophy, shouldn't your arm get bigger? Have any of you actually measured and/or tracked your forearm circumference?

Not that some great advice and very good data points haven't come out here and in other threads - by everyone. I just don't think the “common” of what is being conveyed is a panacea.


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By Crossing
From Breinigsville, PA
Jan 26, 2012
old rag summit

Dave Macleods take on hypertrophy is : Hypertrophy happens after many months and years of exposing a muscle to a certain type of force.
onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.com/2010/02/fingerboarding-timi>>>

So my take on this (for what its worth) is that as long as you are consistently stressing your forearms enough, for long enough (months, years) you will see hypertrophy gains but it is going to take a while. Deciding to use short vs long duration hangs comes down to your own personal weakness be it Max R or PE because you can work on it in the Hyp phase as well as its own phase.

Monomaniac wrote:
The impetus for change at the time was that I found I was really good at PE and generally sucked at power, so I wanted to move my Hyp training more toward the direction of MaxR.


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By slim
Administrator
Jan 26, 2012
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

in the past, when i didn't have access to bouldering or a campus board, i used a method similar to DM etc for a MR phase and it worked pretty well. i would have to go back to my notes, but i think it was something like 5 on 25 off X 4, 3 sets of 5 grips.

here's why i have gone back to the HB routine. i climbed diligently for about 8 years before i started hangboarding, and in one cycle immediately went up about a number grade (both OS and RP). i used the the hangboard for about 4 years with quite a bit of success, climbing mostly on vertical crimps and cracks. then, i moved and my main climbing partner was more into doing easier gear routes (10 to 11 range) so i did that for a couple years. then, SCC came out and i spent 5 years going basically nowhere using that training method, despite following it almost obsessively. every year just barely scraping up to 2 letter grades (or worse) less than in my HB years.

about a year ago, chris plesko mentioned in a thread that he was surprised that i would spend my time beating my head against the wall with no results to show for it. this was a good point last spring/summer i was out with a shoulder injury, so in the fall i went back to the HB and had a lot of success. after christmas i started my current routine, and already i am off to a much better start than when i did the SCC thing.

here is why i think that the SCC method didn't work for me. the gym climbing just doesn't represent what most people climb, at least on the front range. sure, it's probably great for the rifle crowd, but it is painfully inadequate for climbing anywhere else around here. the holds are big and bulbous, which kills your finger strength and makes your footwork go to shit. evry spring season, it would take me at least a month to re-adjust to real rock after developing bad habits in the gym. it isn't the best tool for strength training because there are too many bigger reasons for falling off (instead of strength failure).

another problem with the gym is that the distances between the holds don't really vary that much on a practical level. if you pick 3 climbers - one who is hella short, one who is about 5'9", and one who is hella tall, and watch them climb the routes this becomes pretty obvious. i watch the climbers a lot while running on the treadmill, stretching, etc. you'll see that the 5'9" climbers will hit almost every hold with straight arms and their legs in a comfortable (not too straight, not too bent) position. the shorties are real stretched, and the tall folks either have unnaturally bent arms or unnaturally bent legs. this results in basically every move having the same dimensions. i think the setters try to work around this, but if they try to make a move into a long move, they always bump the feet up. this ends up just resulting in the same scenario for the most part. the shorties will still find it long, the tall folks will still just find it scrunchy. i think they try to make something that kind-of works for everybody - but compromise breeds mediocrity.

watching a ton of people at the gym, i see basically the same thing with others using the SCC program. don't get me wrong, there are a few that i have seen who have had a lot of success with this method, but the vast majority that i have seen make a quick improvement from 5.10 to 11+ or maybe 12-, and just hit a brick wall. i won't say that the SCC program had no improvement on my climbing - i improved in some ways, but the key thing is that this improvement wasn't enough to overcome the shortcomings. overall in the grand scheme, i think it was probably a good thing, but i should not have done it for so long. maybe just 2 years would have been better.

this cycle i am trying a hybrid workout, where my first priority is the HB workout to get my strength back, and my second priority is climbing in the gym, basically to keep my stamina/PE/movement/accustomization to trying hard at a maintenance sort of level.

we'll see how it goes...


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By Will S
From Joshua Tree
Jan 26, 2012

JLP wrote:
My related question, if you have truly trained hypertrophy, shouldn't your arm get bigger? Have any of you actually measured and/or tracked your forearm circumference?


Actually, yes. Not tracked, but measured a few times over the years that I've been training seriously and they are bigger.

The subject is ridiculously complex, being multi-variate. That said, I'd recommend this paper/thesis, specifically Chapter 2 the review of lit. The takeaway is that in the first couple of months, the gains are mainly neurological, the remainder of the first year they are primarily hypertrophy related, and then a third round of mostly neurological comes into play.

digitalcommons.uconn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1074&co>>>

To add to the complexity, we're dealing with isometrics where the neural effects are even more complicated than concentric/eccentric.

And BTW, MacCleod is, to put it nicely, way off base WRT hypertrophy. There are many, many studies that show significant hypertrophy within months in untrained subjects. A sample:

research conducted by MacDougall et al, in which untrained young men increased the muscle fiber area in their triceps brachii by 33% and 27% in Type II and Type I fiber respectively after six months of resistance training.


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By camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
Jan 26, 2012
You stay away from mah pig!

JLP wrote:
That's kind of where my head is at here as well. I'm aware of the Anderson resumes (sample of 2), but there are also a lot of 11's and 12's in the profiles above - not exactly elite - just has to be said to keep things honest here, IMO. Lots of 12 and 13 climbers out there who basically just climb. My related question - if you have truly trained hypertrophy, shouldn't your arm get bigger? Have any of you actually measured and/or tracked your forearm circumference? Not that some great advice and very good data points haven't come out here and in other threads - by everyone. I just don't think the “common” of what is being conveyed is a panacea.


Well, Ryan Palo has had pretty significant gains with high reps (3 sets of 7x7, 6x7, 5x7 per grip). So, sample size of 3.

www.powercompanyclimbing.com/search/label/The%20Specialist

I'm still very much experimenting with what will work for me, and yeah, in future cycles I might try fewer reps and more weight. I'm really looking forward to see if/how this will improve my spring season. And, my profile on here is pretty sparse, and doesn't reflect my climbing resume :)


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By Ryan Palo
From Bend, oregon
Jan 26, 2012
Me

So a few things have come up, I wrote the following in response to some questions in the Powercompanyclimbing site:

Lee CujesJan 21, 2012 10:05 PM
Thanks for posting this. Very interesting stuff, and what's great is that it's vastly different to what I am currently doing, which further demonstrates the versatility of the humble workout.

A few points I found interesting:

1. Doing a set of 6-7 reps is the classic 'repeaters' exercise which has been around for a long time. I do certainly think there is a hypertrophy (muscle building) element to this exercise, but really, you're developing a pump as well. This goes into power endurance (anaerobic endurance). I'm not saying this isn't useful (it's still awesome training), but for true hypertrophy, you shouldn't be getting pumped, and you should be doing more maximal hangs, and this is achieved with one arms, taking weight off as necessary with a counterweight system where you hold the rope (attached to weights through a pulley) with your free hand.

2. Ryan uses the same weight across all grips. I just can't see how this can be specific enough. For example, on a four finger edge I am going to be twice as strong (more actually) than on front two pockets. The intensity therefore is going to be all over the place. I (personally) want to be maximising (and increasing) my intensity across the different grip types.

3. Ryan, don't bother building a hangboard. Just buy a Beastmaker 2000. More than enough extreme grips there for you.

Thanks again for sharing your system. I used to use a system very similar, and have now switched to what I consider a more pure HYP setup (and am seeing great improvements), but I will still employ repeaters throughout certain phases in the year (particularly when transitioning into PE phases).

Cheers
Lee Cujes
upskillclimbing.com

(me)
I agree with you about the duration of repetitions. The goal should be to achieve failure from the set and not to carry a pump between sets. Let me clarify this. I used to use different durations to avoid a building pump maybe 5-6sec hangs, with a 5sec rest between repetitions. As I got better at the exercise, I shortened the duration of the rest and increased the repetition. Never was I carrying a pump. I always thought that this type of training fell into the sarcoplasmic hypertrophy camp.

As for the one-arm hangs, Im not sure I follow your logic. I understand the need for isolation, but I do not see how that is more difficult that adding weight. As for the time commitment, I simply do not have the resources.

I didnt mention this in the article, but I do an additional 7 sets of single rep max hangs to address sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. I picked this up from Bill Ramsey, called The Rule of Seven ( in reference to the youngest age you can date...your age minus seven ). In this exercise my objective is to achieve failure within 7sec. This is followed by 70sec rest. Here I do change weight for each grip.

For the weight/grip issue, I control intensity by the grip I use. So a terrible crimp with four fingers feels about the same a medium pocket with two fingers. If I worked pockets more, your ( and many other's ) approach would be the proper way. Im quite strong on monos and two finger pockets. I spend the majority of my time working opened handed crimps ( like the kind found at my home crag ).

You also mentioned using the hangboard as a power endurance trainer. I think this is an interesting concept. I’ve usual used the standard methods: 4x4s, intevals, linked sequences, etc. I think this might be a useful tool in my kit.

Thanks for the Beastmaker suggestion. I might give that a shot.

BTW if you ever noticed a vistor from Bend Oregon on your site, that was me. Excelent resource you have there. Thanks again for your input.


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By Tipton
Jan 26, 2012

JLP wrote:
That's kind of where my head is at here as well. I'm aware of the Anderson resumes (sample of 2), but there are also a lot of 11's and 12's in the profiles above - not exactly elite - just has to be said to keep things honest here, IMO. Lots of 12 and 13 climbers out there who basically just climb. My related question - if you have truly trained hypertrophy, shouldn't your arm get bigger? Have any of you actually measured and/or tracked your forearm circumference? Not that some great advice and very good data points haven't come out here and in other threads - by everyone. I just don't think the “common” of what is being conveyed is a panacea.


As one of the aforementioned 11 and 12 climbers, the main reason that I am attracted to the Anderson methods is because it took them from the exact same level I'm in and moved them to the elite level.

Even if it is a small sample, it worked for them so it has a chance of working for me. Definitely a better chance than me experimenting.

Are repeaters the absolute best method to train hypertrophy? -Probably not. (I doubt anyone knows the best method...)

Are repeaters an effective method to train hypertrophy?
-Without a doubt, as has been shown repeatedly.

I started doing the RockProdigy hangboard method roughly 5 months ago. I don't do periodization, just train hypertrophy for a few weeks then take a week or so off.

Before hangboarding, my best onsight was 10d with a best redpoint of 11a.

Now, my best onsight is 12a with a best redpoint of 12a (I don't project, so that's a little skewed...). I would say that my 'onsight level' for sport has moved from 10b/c up to 11b/c in 5 months. That is an improvement that I can directly attribute to hangboarding. I've been climbing for several years so it's probably not skill related. I've also moved to lower Alabama so I get to climb outside much less than before, which should have had a negative impact on my climbing.

I'm currently experimenting with alternating the RockProdigy hypertrophy workout and then doing a one rep max type workout. It seems to be effective so far, but I haven't been at it long enough to really tell.


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By Ryan Palo
From Bend, oregon
Jan 26, 2012
Me

In response to JLP.

I have seen a bit of muscle gain. But not as much as you'd expect.

One thing I havent seen anyone touch on yet is what the hangboard trains you to do. Outside of its obvious use, I've found that my time hanging on a board has taught me to work under extreme duress. Sometimes crux sequences are downright unpleasant. You just have to grit your teeth and endure.


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By camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
Jan 26, 2012
You stay away from mah pig!

Ryan Palo wrote:
... I picked this up from Bill Ramsey, called The Rule of Seven ( in reference to the youngest age you can date...your age minus seven ).


Actually, the dating rule of 7 is "half your age +7" This forces younger people to date near their age (an 18 year old can only date down to 16), but allows older folks more leeway (a 50 year old can date down to 32). Important training info, I know.

Thanks for your response, Ryan.


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By Mike Anderson
From Dayton, OH
Jan 26, 2012

camhead wrote:
Actually, the dating rule of 7 is "half your age +7" This forces younger people to date near their age (an 18 year old can only date down to 16), but allows older folks more leeway (a 50 year old can date down to 32).


This has always been my understanding of the rule....


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By Mike Anderson
From Dayton, OH
Jan 26, 2012

Jorde wrote:
It seems like the extensive Hyp plans that I’ve seen here on MP are not used by any of these really good climbers/trainers. I think it might make sense if people did not have access to a climbing gym, but I don’t think that is the case. So what’s the dealio? What is the benefit of repeaters compared to short single hangs?


I have never claimed that our program is the best there is. I do think it is just about the best thing you can do if you have limited time and limited access to resources. The fact that full-time, well-paid professional European climbers, with access to the best facilities on the planet don't train exactly like us is not surprising at all. If I had their time and resources I wouldn't train the same way either. If anything, the fact that they are still doing any hangboard work is a hell of an endorsement for hangboard training.

I have said this before, but personally, I can't get up to full strength on any grip in just one rep, in fact, it takes me at least a whole set (6-7 reps) at a high weight (90% of max) before I feel "warmed up" and ready to pull maximally.

I think Ryan also makes a good point. Hanging on a board under controlled circumstances really teaches you what you are actually capable of. My last workout, for the first time ever, I hung with 100 lbs off my 1-pad edge, something I would have never believed I could have done without systematically building up to it. When you get on a heinous boulder problem or crux, you know how to deal with the small, painful hold, and you can believe in your ability to hang off it. I don't think you can get them from random bouldering at the gym.


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By JohnWesely
From Red River Gorge
Jan 27, 2012
Gunking

Slim,

What is it about the SCC that didn't work? The book is pretty much a bunch of exercises that you craft into your own training program. If the routes you were doing did not require fitness, I can see how the SCC might lead you astray, but to say gym climbing makes your fingers weaker? I don't really buy that.

Everyone else,

I am a total HB noob, so take this for what its worth. I just started my first cycle of HYP as outlined in the Rockprodigy program and disagree that repeaters, at least as outlined, train AE. By the end of the workout, my forearms are definitely fatigued, but a true pump never sits in. My forearm response from repeaters is nothing like that from doing 4x4s or its variations. This will possibly change as my body adapts.


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By slim
Administrator
Jan 27, 2012
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

John,

I could probably write a book on the SCC stuff. Again, don't get me wrong - there is some good stuff in there, but the main problem is that it seems to be geared almost entirely for climbing at the red or rifle. a couple examples; they portray that climbing side-in (as opposed to frontal) is the be-all-end-all. there is a time for side in and a time for frontal. one of the problems with trying to climb exclusively side in, is that sometimes it is a lot less efficient to try to pivot, swing your knees through, etc to get the opposite side in. as you swing your knees through it ends up pushing you out from the wall, which isn't the end of the world if you are on jugs, but is the end of the world if you are on crappy holds.

one of the foot techiques depicted in the book is pivoting. sure, this works great when the footholds are big, but not when the holds are small (and as a personal pet peave it grinds the surface of the holds into a polished mess).

Another problem I have with the book is that the estimated workout times are not even remotely reasonable. Maybe if you had an entire gym to yourself and a dedicated belay slave, but not when you are fighting for routes and climbing with a partner who also wants a workout.

Another thing I found annoying, I can't remember if it was in the book, or whether it was something the authors said online. Somebody asked about training despite living in kansas or something, and their response was something to the effect of 'if you are really committed to climbing you need to move somewhere to better climbing'. sure, this might be somewhat appropriate to a young kid just out of college, but what about a married person with a real job, kids in school, etc. i kind of thought it was a pretty chicken shit answer.

One more thing - their approach seems to be to climb at one crag and gangbang routes into submission. there's nothing wrong with that. however, i posted a question about how to best optimize my training towards being able to onsite at several pretty different areas. they said that i obviously didn't have any real goals (apparently because my plan didn't revolve around gangbanging routes into submission at one crag). i had very particular goals - it just didn't fit into their narrow mindset. obviously i know that i won't be able to climb at my fullest number potential by climbing at a bunch of diverse locations, but my primary partner likes to travel and have variety. it's a compromise. to say that a person lacks commitment or doesn't really have goals because they want to climb at different areas? again, i put this into the chickenshit category.

A lot of the best stuff in the book isn't really new info for example building route pyramids, ARC/HYP/MR/PE theory, etc. They actually state that there are other books with great info about how to crack climb (this was prior to the petro/gnade book which is ok). Really?The sections on movement are actually good and I learned and utilze a lot of the movement initiation methods.

The Redpoint book just slightly rehashes the SCC book, while adding a bunch of text about the obvious. total waste of $25 in my opinion.

Getting to your question about the gym making your fingers weaker - gyms are notoriously afraid to put up crimpy routes because they are afraid people will get hurt (finger injuries) on them. I think this is doing kind of a dis-service in teh long run though, as people don't develop this sort of strength, or (in my case) lose this strength over the winter. then, when you get on a crimpy route outside you are at a pretty significant disadvantage. your fingers just aren't ready for it, but it is the same grade (or a number grade easier) than the routes you have been doing in the gym. some folks say you can gain stronger crimp strength from training on slopers, but i don't really agree with this.

Another thing that i touched on earlier - that gym climbing isnt the BEST method for building strength. There are several components of this, but it all boils down to - did you REALLY fail due to a strength issue? in gym climbing it is more likely that you slimed off of a greasy basketball, or perhaps you kind of gave up because the route you are leading traversed and you were afraid of falling and swinging into the climber on the route beside you, or you were bouldering and a little kid started playing right beneath you so you lost focus, or perhaps the move was too reachy/scrunchy, maybe it was kind of a wild dyno that you didn't REALLY commit to because you were afraid of tweaking your shoulder, etc. there are just too many variables.

some people say that bouldering hard in the gym is key to climbing outside. i have a friend who boulders pretty hard in the gym. he is really, really strong, particularly on slopers. weirdly enough, on gym routes his max grade is similar to mine (although he is a lot more solid than i am), but his outside route grade is about 1.5 grades harder than his inside grade.

i spent quite a bit of time bouldering in the gym, and i got a lot better at - bouldering in the gym. however, it did absolutely nothing (or worse) for my roped climbing (particularly outside).

getting back to the hangboard routines - when you are hanging on a HB, it all boils down to strength and friction. you do the best you can to control the friction issue by keeping the temperature cool, having your hands as dry as possible. that leaves strength. you will almost always fail due to strength. then, as you keep detailed records you can systematically apply the right amout of load and monitor how your strength is changing.

everybody is different, some people have a natural tendency at things. some are able to apply experiences across a greater spectrum of styles, some are good at systematically decomposing things and building a gameplan, some people are good at not giving up and pulling things off through sheer determination. some people can just show up about once every 6 months and get it done (i hate these people, nothing personal :).

there are many different training methods. is the hangboard the best for HYP training? definitely not for everybody, but probably for some. i fall into the category of the guy with a serious job, limited time, who needs to make compromises to make things happen. for me, the HB routinte seems to work best. i'm trying to blend in some gym climbing, just to maintain other aspects. for most people, i don't think the HB routine is the best option - it takes a lot of discipline and dedication in what a lot of people will feel is an 'abstract' (not sure what word to use here) sort of direction.


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By Monomaniac
Administrator
From Morrison, CO
Jan 27, 2012
Pulling a small roof at 2/3 height on Mission Impossible.  Adam Sanders photo.

JohnWesely wrote:
I just started my first cycle of HYP as outlined in the Rockprodigy program and disagree that repeaters, at least as outlined, train AE. By the end of the workout, my forearms are definitely fatigued, but a true pump never sits in. My forearm response from repeaters is nothing like that from doing 4x4s or its variations.


I agree with you John, although it does depend somewhat on the grip type. Some grips (like pinches) are inherently more pumpy than others (say, 2 finger pockets), probably because they use a larger percentage of the forearm flexor fibers. Anyway, my guess is that most of the people claiming that our program is AE have never done our program.


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By JLP
From The Internet
Jan 27, 2012

Well, it's obviously building strength for at least a few people.

Hypertrophy: J Siegrest has some rather large forearms, but has "only" been climbing since 02-04 or so. P Beal, another local .14 climber, after ~25+ (?) yrs of climbing, has forearms of twigs.

Seems to me if your forearm isn't getting bigger, it wasn't hypertrophy - by simple definition.

My own vocational world of understanding and manipulating things down to the atomic level following Maxwell, Euler and Newton isn't the world of human physiology, for sure. Most of what I read seems like something between made-up BS and grievous oversimplification. But, I wasn't smart enough to get into med school, either.

These timing recipes mean a lot less to me than talk about how the workout feels and how you recover from it.

That said, in my own training and reading about training, I think it's a real struggle to get a workout "right". I think to actually do a workout side by side with one of you would be a very different experience than reading endless blogs about it.

SCC - nobody but slim mentioned not using a hangboard. That said, I would say I have about 2-3 full cover-cover reads of PRC, Horst and SCC, plus several more reads of specific chapters. It really takes awhile to "get" what to do. I don't think any book contradicts the other.

I also think there is a LOT to learn, and each book is incomplete. For example, Horst has 1 paragraph that talks about working up to 1500 feet of climbing in the ARC/Stamina/Endurance phase - easy to miss. PRC gives it 2 chapters. SCC gives it half the book. However, neither SCC nor PRC talk much about general conditioning and injury prevention - both absolutely KEY if you are piling on the volume at an intermediate to advanced level. Horst shines here. None of the books include the personal anecdotes and experiences you'll find in the internet blogs. Lots to know and learn...


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By reboot
From Westminster, CO
Jan 27, 2012

slim wrote:
Getting to your question about the gym making your fingers weaker - Another thing that i touched on earlier - that gym climbing isnt the BEST method for building strength.

slim, my experience contradicts with your finding, but I have a feeling both of us are right. And that's really the take home point: there are many training programs out there, we'll need to experiment with them to find what works for each of us. Of course, having a keen sense of what exactly is holding you back will make that process shorter.


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By slim
Administrator
Jan 27, 2012
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

i have noticed that the gym climbing seems to be really working well for you - you seem to have bumped it up a notch or 2 this last couple years. do you think it is from an increase in strengtho, or technique, or both, etc? for the indoor climbing - do you have any tips for improvement? i seem to have hit a wall for a long time in that area. where are you climbing mostly outside these days?


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