Another Accident due to mis-use of the Gri-gri
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I just spoke with an eye-witness to this accident, which happened only 6 hours ago. |
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Buy one of these and stop worrying: |
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Dave Schultz wrote: Or: A) Dont fall if your belayer can't belay and/or is new. B) Teach your belayer to belay you, then still don't fall. C) Only fall with someone who knows how to belay. If you know how to belay with a tube device you will be fine, the Gri-Gri functions on the same brake hand principle ...True, but you can't control A, B, or C but you can control which device they use. |
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Tradoholic wrote: True, but you can't control A, B, or C but you can control which device they use.Nonsense...you CAN control who belays you. Don't climb with a belayer that is not competent to catch you, and if you do, treat it as a solo and deal with the consequences if you do fall. |
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Brian Scoggins wrote: So my options are: choose to climb with people who know what they are doing or Buy another device and continue to operate under the erroneous belief that its the device, and not the user, that causes these accidents. The single, unassailable thing to take away from all of these accidents (with gri-gris, cinchs, smart alpines, VRCs, Mega-Juls, etc) is that no device is idiot-proof, and the most important single cause of belay accidents is some idiot like yourself promoting any device as idiot-proof.You can't always tell right off the bat if someone knows what they are doing and even seasoned pros make mistakes. The devices I suggest have a much less likelihood of being mis-used. They are not idiot proof but I guarantee that they are better than the Gri. |
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Learn how to body belay properly 1st. |
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Snapped this photo at Clear Creek awhile back: I knew there would be a perfect opportunity for this photo on M Proj some day. That day has come. |
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Dave Schultz wrote: LOL. Did you say anything, or just let darwin work his thing ...Yea, he told me he has been climbing for 45 years. I was like hell, I have only been climbing for 11, so I guess I'll let you do your thing. ;) |
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John Byrnes wrote: Grabbing the climbers-strand will prevent the Gri-gri from locking. I see a lot of people using a Gri-gri with bad habits. I see new belayers being inadequately trained. So many people assume it will lock every time regardless of the belayer's actions. If you have bad habits, fix them. If you train someone else, train them to keep their left hand OFF the climbers rope except when feeding, and then to use only a few fingers to feed; never wrap your hand around it. Trust me, you do not want to be on EITHER end of the rope when this happens!That sucks. Best wishes for the climber and his daughter who must have some major guilt issues from this. Hits close to home since my 15 year old daughter belays me (with an ATC and has caught me many times). I don't use a Grigri so I'm wondering how much friction you get when it doesn't lock if the brake hand is held like you would with an ATC? |
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20 kN wrote: Yea, he told me he has been climbing for 45 years. I was like hell, I have only been climbing for 11, so I guess I'll let you do your thing. ;)Most of the time this style of belay works. When the Gri came out everyone did this. If the belayer is always paying attention it's fine but we all know that's not always the case. BTW, I can say with confidence that the Jule and the Smart are almost idiot proof, seriously, it is HARD to screw it up. The main difference is that the Gri unlocks with a contraction motion, a common panic response, these devices unlock with an expansion motion, the opposite. |
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Seriously, what's the obsession with the GriGri? |
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Anyway, more to the topic, I have never been in agreement with the whole "this belay device is the safest" argument. Sure, under some conditions the GriGri is safer than the ATC, no doubt. But there are no absolutes. The truth is the safest belay device is the one the user is most comfortable and experienced using. Trying to force an ATC user to use a GriGri because you think the GriGri is safer is not wise. Often I hear people say they believe noobs should be using GriGris because the belay device is safer. I disagree. Everyone should learn how to belay on an ATC so they understand and experience the extremely important premise that you must never let go of the brake hand or you will lose control of the belay. The GriGri does not lead one to that conclusion easily because it locks. |
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SPEAKING of bad habits that need fixing... |
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Top Rope Hero wrote: and I have never ever EVER once heard ANYONE yap about keeping any hand off of any climbers strand.I think his reasoning is that if you are pulling down on the climber strand (that is, toward you as a belayer) then it can cause a new belayer to instinctively and inadvertently try to catch the fall by letting go of the GriGri brake strand and instead trying to simply "grab" the rope without the assist of the belay device. But that's just my hyphosis based on what he reported. Anyway, the problem here is not really keeping the hand off the climber strand, the real problem is inexperience. It sounds like the belayer just dident really know what she was doing. I keep my hand on the climber strand and brake strand all the time. Left hand on the climber strand, right on the brake strand, just as the video shows. It's a critical step in belaying and it addresses a few concerns. First, it enables me to instantly feed slack for those times where the climber is pumped as shit and cannot wait all day for me. It also ensures that I hold the device in the optimal position, loaded correctly along the carabiner, as opposed to the carabiner getting loaded over the gate (which you see often with ATCs). Last, I pull up and out on the climber strand so that the GriGri is locked before the climber falls. That ensures that when the rope is loaded, not only do I have a firm grasp on the brake strand but the GriGri is already locked upon loading (as opposed to locking once the load is applied). So that's how I do things, and I have caught well over 1000 lead falls using this style. I cant think of a safer option. |
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idahomike wrote:Seriously, what's the obsession with the GriGri?American obsession with 'the best' and/or 'fool proof'. Folks who profess 'this way is the best' tell me they are really one trick ponies. I have a full bag of tricks |
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Yes, enough Gri-bashing. The device is wonderfully safe, and is useful in all aspects of climbing (particularly hard sport, where yarding up a rope is common after falls). |
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evan h wrote:The device is wonderfully safe, and is useful in all aspects of climbing (particularly hard sport, where yarding up a rope is common after falls).Why is a GriGri more useful than an ATC in this situation? evan h wrote: you'll find it's easier to feed slack than using an ATCNever heard this one before. Why/how is it easier to feed slack than an ATC? |
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idahomike wrote: Why is a GriGri more useful than an ATC in this situation? Never heard this one before. Why/how is it easier to feed slack than an ATC?When someone falls and they're yarding back up rope, no progress is lost due to the camming device. If I'm belaying with an ATC and the climber is falling a lot and pulling back up the rope, you're constantly battling with the small amount of slip as you pull the rope back in. This is my main gripe with being belayed with an ATC in this kind of situation. If I'm pulling back up the rope and want to be at a specific spot, I can always feel myself slipping back down 6 or so inches. It's trivial to those not interested in project-style sport climbing. To your other point, it's only when feeding lots of slack quickly (i.e. during a clip). I find that using an ATC requires a two-handed, jerky kind of movement to throw out a few arm's worth of slack. With a Gri-gri, I keep my brake hand where it is (on the rope!), while simultaneously pressing the cam with my thumb (see "new technique" in the video posted). The only motion is on the climber's side of the rope. Again, it's fairly trivial stuff, but I do think it's easier. |
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To get rope burns on both hands it may have been fed backwards. We use Gri- Gri's mostly on steep sport, where dogging is apt to be common; sometimes as a backup in single rope situations. When introducing the device to a beginner open it and show them how it locks. Different rope diameters are a variable to consider. Give the lead rope a sharp yank to demonstrate, make that a part of your safety check. Don't expect too much from beginners. Practice' in controlled environments, with a variety of devices. |
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Top Rope Hero wrote:SPEAKING of bad habits that need fixing... So? Yah. Learnin good technique and shit is important alright. But at the risk of breaking rule #1 and coming off like a douche I honestly dont even know what the fuck youre talking about, Byrnes. Now, usually, Im that guy who just lets the little things goeasy as the wind like that. But youre making some big (mis)claims about some big stuff here. You sure you know what youre talking about? Myself, I have climbed for more than 20 years. Used both versions of the grigri for more than a dozen of thosestill do. Even taught climbing at an AMGA-certified outfit in Estes Park for a number of years. Ive belayed in Rifle, in the Red, in Kalymnos, in the Blue Mountains of Australia and the badass tufas of Thailand and beyond. Ive caught dozens and dozens of climbers for hundreds and hundreds of falls and I have never ever EVER once heard ANYONE yap about keeping any hand off of any climbers strand. Thing the first: Theres nothing inherent about the design of the grigri that I can see that would make it paramount to never wrap your hand around the climbers strand. Even if I applied the Kung Fu death grip, I dont even remotely see how that would prevent the grigri from functioning properly.Ego-centric people like you are why I posted this. You think you know it all... You don't believe me? Go test it, instead of digging up decades-old videos that don't show the failure mode. |
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I simply just don't see the advantages of using one, other than for specific routes with more rockfall hazard than usual. |