Login with Facebook
 ADVANCED
Anchor Setup Efficiency
View Latest Posts in This Forum or All Forums
   Page 1 of 1.  
Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
 
 
By cjon3s
From Sterling, VA
Mar 29, 2013
Hanging at Seneca
So I've tried searching, but am not sure what to even search for with my questions.

Here goes:

I'm looking to be a bit more efficient with my cordelette setup. So does anyone have recommendations on their order of operations when setting up the cordelette?

Is it best to clip the first piece and just take and then set up the rest of it?

What about going in direct to a solid first piece? Maybe a sling to a solid cam or a clove hitch, then call off belay and finish the anchor while the second prepares to move.

I'm just looking for a system that would be the simplest, most direct way to do this.

I've tried both of these and I feel almost like I'm fumbling trying to move things around to get my cordelette setup around the rope.

Thanks for the suggestions!

FLAG
By Noah T
From Atlanta, Georgia
Mar 29, 2013
Have you seen the presewn anchor slings? all it is is just a length of nylon or dyneema webbing with two loops sewn at the end.. that would definitely help (i want to get one myself). also, i myself wouldn't call off belay until i have atleast two pieces in.. i like redundancy. this is only on exposed/hanging belays though. i will yell off belay with one piece in on a secure belay platform. thats just me. im sure theres some way better tips out there.

FLAG
By Ryan N
From San Louis Obispo
Mar 29, 2013
RJN
Fuck the pre sewn slings and alpine equalizer. Less is more! I've spent a great deal of time tweaking my setup, which is a 20' piece of cordalette. I use Titan cord which I like for its rigidity, and I'm not sure, but I believe it's 5mil. I have tied a figure eight on a bight at each end. I found this to be the most versatile setup. As far as setting up, I usually place the first piece, and if its bomber, then I clove my rope to it then I'm off belay. That gives me time to build anchor while partner begins to clean previous anchor. If its not bomber, then make the 3 point equalized anchor then clove to master then off belay. My 2cents...

FLAG
By 1Eric Rhicard
Mar 29, 2013
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo
Screw all that stuff. Use your rope and some clove hitches. Saves weight, saves time and it is bomber.

FLAG
By mattm
From TX
Mar 31, 2013
Grande Grotto
The most important thing to realize is that there are "best practices" for different scenarios. There is no "one ring to rule them all" belay building style. What works really well for one area and team might be terrible for another climbing venue. You have to think for yourself and modify systems to your needs.

The "religious rope" guys CAN be right. There are certainly many situations where less is more and simply using your rope, some biners and clove hitches is all you really need. Climbing on Twin/Halfs can make this even more true. I certainly use this method a fair amount.

HOWEVER, I've also noticed that "specialized" gear for anchors CAN be advantageous. The Gear haters will always frown on this but in certain circumstances, there is a better way.

Where I find having specialized anchor gear most helpful is when I will be doing most if not all of the leading. Even more so if my 2nd is less experienced. An all-rope-anchor is simply a PITA to efficiently work with (lead change over, anchor break down etc etc). Having an extremely CLEAR anchor that a less experienced 2nd can work with and break down is huge.

I've tinkered with all manner of anchor nerdery. I'm pretty much over the cordalette, Equalette etc. True equalization is pretty much a myth and the bulk and ass-wankery you have to mess with at each belay (eg 2nd trying to stow that thing) make the 'lette low on my list.

Somewhere back in the posts someone linked to a German Publication on anchor building. There's some really interesting stuff in the PDF and google translate can help with the reading.
German Belay Article

Anyway, the most interesting thing I saw in there was the prevalent use of a "Belay Sling". This is not something like a PAS or Anchor chain but a large loop with a small, belay loop like smaller loop.


I ended up tying my own to test the idea out. After a few days out with it I REALLY liked the setup. It's FAST to implement, provides a clear "master point" and is damn simple for the second to breakdown and stow (just like and over the shoulder sling). It's also less bulky than a cordalette. I ended up ordering the edelrid adjustable one .
Here's Edelrids video (german) of it in multiple setups.


Again, you need to determine WHAT your needs and preferences are. There's no silver bullet.
Right now, for me, the Belay Sling is damn useful.

FLAG
By Ryan Nevius
From The Range of Light
Mar 31, 2013
Mt. Agassiz
I think it really comes down to "practice makes perfect"...or something like that. The faster you can recognize what it will take to build an anchor upon reaching the end of a pitch, the quicker it will go up. In other words, if you finish your lead and instantly know that the crack in front of you will take a .75BD, a #1 Mastercam, and a #6 stopper, you're already saving minutes of debate time.

mattm really said it right. It's good to have an arsenal of techniques to use depending on the situation. While I have used Ryan's method above, it's honestly just as fast as using a pre-tied loop of cord.

Since this sounds like what you're using (a cordelette tied in a loop), I'd recommend plugging in your first piece and clove hitching your cordelette to it near the knot (it's sometimes also a good idea to clip your lead rope into this piece to prevent a big fall while building a belay). This will keep the knot out of the way for the rest of the setup. Plug in your other two pieces, clip, equalize, tie an overhand (or figure 8), clove into the masterpoint and call OFF. It's pretty straightforward.

In the time that you now spend pulling up the rope and putting your second on belay, he/she should be able to clean up the anchor they're at. In other words, I see no need to go directly into the first piece and call off. All of this also assumes that there isn't a natural anchor you can build, which tends to be the quickest.

FLAG
By Gunkiemike
Mar 31, 2013
cjon3s wrote:
Is it best to clip the first piece and just take and then set up the rest of it?


So you're thinking you'll clip in to/put weight on a single piece? That ain't an anchor in MY book.

FLAG
By Thomas Beck
From Las Vegas, Nevada
Mar 31, 2013
beck on limestone
cjon3s wrote:
So I've tried searching, but am not sure what to even search for with my questions. Here goes: I'm looking to be a bit more efficient with my cordelette setup. So does anyone have recommendations on their order of operations when setting up the cordelette? Is it best to clip the first piece and just take and then set up the rest of it? What about going in direct to a solid first piece? Maybe a sling to a solid cam or a clove hitch, then call off belay and finish the anchor while the second prepares to move. I'm just looking for a system that would be the simplest, most direct way to do this. I've tried both of these and I feel almost like I'm fumbling trying to move things around to get my cordelette setup around the rope. Thanks for the suggestions!

------------------------------
I hate to be harsh, but if you have to ask this question on the internet (on Mountain Project of all places) you need to pay an AMGA certified guide for a day's lesson before you become rescue bait.

Time-wise ...you should have this down in less than a minute unless the gear placements are extremely tricky.

Is this another troll?

FLAG
 
By cjon3s
From Sterling, VA
Mar 31, 2013
Hanging at Seneca
It wasn't a troll. My main issue more than anything was keeping my rope out of the way of my cordelette when constructing my anchor. I was clipping my cordelette and rope to the same biner.

Just adding a sling to that piece lets me take while I get my other pieces in. I was way, way overthinking the entire issue. Obviously, as well, the clove is not fitting and it's better to just clip in and stay on belay.

Thanks for the good responses.

FLAG
By cjon3s
From Sterling, VA
Mar 31, 2013
Hanging at Seneca
Any suggestions on what you guys use for block leads?

I have no issue using the rope to anchor when swapping leads, but the cordelette makes more sense for block leading. Are there any other, possibly better methods you all use?

FLAG
By Thomas Beck
From Las Vegas, Nevada
Mar 31, 2013
beck on limestone
Block Leading

I have no issue using the rope to anchor when swapping leads, but the cordelette makes more sense for block leading. Are there any other, possibly better methods you all use?
-----------------------------------------------
My priority is now get up the route as fast as possible in good style

I use whatever's left on my rack at the top of the pitch. Hopefully it will not be a vital piece for the next pitch; that's my selection criteria. The same selection process for rigging. If the next pitch is going to take a lot of long runners, I limit my use in the anchor; if not I may be use 2 runners. Everything comes to a master point (power point). I might be temporarily clipped (hitch or figure 8...doesn't matter...if you have trouble clipping a clove hitch in then you need practice or wider biner gates) into a piece (more than likely my first placement if I am pumped or the stance is fully hanging). It's a belay anchor so by definition every piece should be bomber. It's my discretion to yell down "off belay" or "I'm in direct". I've discussed what this means prior to climbing with my partner. If I am guiding, I say nothing till the anchor is complete.

With a cam, I'll add a biner to that sling (With a bolt hanger I'll add a carabiner under my clip or girth hitch a sling to the hanger.) and go on fashioning the anchor. If the placements are straightforward this process should take less than 60 seconds to where I can safely say "off belay". After, I may refashion the belay while my partner is clearing the lower station to the final piece.

Frankly, I seldom carry a cordelette. Seldom being maybe 3 times in 10 years. I average about 120 days or more a year climbing. If I was professionally guiding parties of 2, I might because clients seem to visualize a cordelette set up quicker.

You could purchase Criag Lubben's book on anchors from Amazon books. It has useful information.

Alternately you could hire a guide for a day. All AMGA guides will be well schooled in multiple ways how to set safe equalized anchors efficiently. If your partners are giving you the "stink eye" and criticizing your anchors then the guide is the way to go before we read about your tragic accident here.

FLAG
By cjon3s
From Sterling, VA
Mar 31, 2013
Hanging at Seneca
I'm not going to kill myself. I'm asking alternatives to what I do, a cordelette, which is in no way unsafe. Obviously we aren't on the same page here as you described parts of anchor and what you do when building it without actually explaining what the anchor is... are we talking sliding x's? Just tied off with an 8? Is your anchor setup different for each pitch accordingly then? Or is there one systematic approach for each anchor?

Im trying to expand my toolbox. Not just experiment and figure out what I think may or may not work.

I'll pick an anchor book up and attempt that.

As an aside, I'm not receiving criticism. I want to streamline the processes I'm using to be as efficient as possible while I climb. I'd rather spend as much time climbing as possible.

FLAG
By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Mar 31, 2013
tanuki
This is a topic about which folks have lots of differing opinions. There is not one RIGHT way to make an anchor, but there are a lot of ways to do it that are not very efficient, or even safe.

Here is the way I usually approach things:

Two bolts, swinging leads = almost always rope.

Two bolts, leading in blocks = not rope. many options here, I usually go with a master point of some kind with slings.

gear anchor, swinging leads = almost always rope.

gear, leading in blocks = usually coordelette.

Some folks don't mind using the rope when leading in blocks. It can be done, and I love anchor building with the rope. However, to me, rope anchors are just a pain in the ass when block leading and I would rather use a coordeltte. As far as sequence for building and clipping into anchors, it just depends. This is 100% situational.

Finally, reading, research and LOTS of practice are your friends. There is no one right way, and one system will not always work. Use common sense and make sure that the individual pieces that you place for your anchor are solid. Have fun and be safe.

FLAG
By bearbreeder
Mar 31, 2013
for block leading i just use a cordelette or a long sling and built a simple masterpoint for gear anchors

basically youll find whatever works best for you ...

dont worry about everyone on the intraweb telling you about how you MUST use their pet technique or youre a gumbie ...

as long as what you do makes sense and isnt unsafe ... there are many ways to skin a kitten

;)

FLAG
By Rhett Burroughs
From Valdosta, GA
Apr 1, 2013
Yup
Me, when not anchoring with rope, which you didn;t ask about....
Arrive at leadge, get good first piece, clip into it with a runner, weight it, stay on belay.
Place addiitonal two pieces, clip my cordalette or webolette thru all three, pull down a masterpoint in the direction of climber/weight, tie an overhand or fig eight, clip locker to master point, double check the anchor, yank on the anchor, while still on belay.
Clove to masterpoint locker with rope, weight/pull on knot to cinch it at agreeable length, unclip from first piece, and go off belay.
This, is the easiest way to work a cordalette and leaves you with a hanging runner for your second or for your gear. If climbing with one partner, we always just throw a clove each on the masterpoint.

With a party of three, if doing a route with belays on decent ledges, if everyone girth hitches a sling or PAS with locker, everyone clips into the masterpoint locker with their locker. Not dynamic, but this keeps the rope free for stacking and doesn't clog up the masterpoint. Just don't unclip your buddies biner.

Back any of these up with additional slings or rope to your comfort level.

FLAG
By Cale Hoopes
From Sammamish, WA
Apr 1, 2013
Profile Icon
The seriously best idea in this thread: "dont worry about everyone on the intraweb telling you about how you MUST use their pet technique or youre a gumbie ..."

I really value the instruction I've had with AMGA guides. But without experience, you won't know even if the guide shows you over and over. You have to practice, dial and see what works for you.

Definitely get the instruction you need if you need it. However, if you've already been shown anchor techniques by a competent instructor, your questions are 100% valid.

I just recently saw those new Metolius "Equalizer" anchors at REI. Intriguing for sure! Nice package, well built, super lightweight and super efficient. They were very interesting to someone just getting started. However, if I brought one along, I don't think it would physically remove a cordalette from my harness. Why? It's too versatile. If I have to rescue someone or I need extra material, I just bring it along. It will depend on how "fast and light" but that's my current opinion.

FLAG
 
By cjon3s
From Sterling, VA
Apr 1, 2013
Hanging at Seneca
Rhett Burroughs wrote:
Me, when not anchoring with rope, which you didn;t ask about.... Arrive at leadge, get good first piece, clip into it with a runner, weight it, stay on belay. Place addiitonal two pieces, clip my cordalette or webolette thru all three, pull down a masterpoint in the direction of climber/weight, tie an overhand or fig eight, clip locker to master point, double check the anchor, yank on the anchor, while still on belay. Clove to masterpoint locker with rope, weight/pull on knot to cinch it at agreeable length, unclip from first piece, and go off belay. This, is the easiest way to work a cordalette and leaves you with a hanging runner for your second or for your gear. If climbing with one partner, we always just throw a clove each on the masterpoint. With a party of three, if doing a route with belays on decent ledges, if everyone girth hitches a sling or PAS with locker, everyone clips into the masterpoint locker with their locker. Not dynamic, but this keeps the rope free for stacking and doesn't clog up the masterpoint. Just don't unclip your buddies biner. Back any of these up with additional slings or rope to your comfort level.


Sorry that I phrased my question so poorly but thisnis exactly what I was looking for!

The extra runner helps keep everything neat and keeps my rope and cordelette separate which keeps me from tangling the two during setup.

I actually just tried it out at the gym off of some draws and it worked flawlessly. Thanks a lot.

FLAG
By cjon3s
From Sterling, VA
May 7, 2013
Hanging at Seneca
Daniel Evans wrote:
How do you build a gear anchor with your climbing rope? Are there any diagrams/videos out there that would effectively demonstrate it? My climbing partner was a mountain leader course instructor with the Marine Corps at MWTC Bridgeport, CA for 3 years and I'm taking AMGA private guide sessions and I have never heard of this. I've always just used a cordalette equalized to three pieces of gear. Or maybe I misread some of your comments and your referring to using the climbing rope as a PAS which I am familiar with.



See here

That's one method. User rgold has a very similiar setup which he came out with previous to this. It can easily be found with a google search.

It's also possible to clove three pieces together and adjust the tension so they share the load.

You could even set it up just like a cordelette. Clove the two outer pieces leaving a good amount of slack, clip the middle piece, then pull down the two loops you've created and tie a masterpoint.

There are a ton of different ways to do this along with appropriate situations. In my case, block leading, it's a bit less convenient than just using a cordelette. But, it does only take a minute or two to switch the anchor to the followers side of the rope when block lead. I just find the cordelette works better for me.

FLAG
By cjon3s
From Sterling, VA
May 7, 2013
Hanging at Seneca
And... deleted his post...

FLAG
By Daniel Evans
From Twentynine Palms, CA
May 8, 2013
hey ya sorry, deleted my post cause I stumbled upon another thread that had videos & diagrams. ha my bad. but thanks for the reply.

FLAG
By Daniel Evans
From Twentynine Palms, CA
May 8, 2013
Actually hey thanks a lot. That's the best video I've seen. Looks pretty legit, I'll have to practice that my next guide session, appreciate it.

FLAG
By kenr
May 8, 2013
mattm wrote:
> ... the most interesting thing I saw in there was the prevalent use
> of a "Belay Sling". This is not something like a PAS or Anchor chain
> but a large loop with a small, belay loop like smaller loop ...
> Edelrid video ...

Thanks for introducing that new approach.
At the end of the Edelrid video they do show how to use their belay sling as a PAS "leash" or "Anchor chain". Also as a leg prusik for ascending the rope.

I had been thinking in the opposite direction of how to use my Sterling Chain Reactor leash / anchor chain (which I already have used as a leg prusik for ascending) -- to help construct a quicker anchor (hybrid w rope) for when I lead multiple pitches in series.

Now this "adjustable belay station sling" looks like it might be a bit more versatile and adjustable.

Ken

FLAG
By Eric G.
May 8, 2013
Ryan N wrote:
As far as setting up, I usually place the first piece, and if its bomber, then I clove my rope to it then I'm off belay. . . If its not bomber, then make the 3 point equalized anchor then clove to master then off belay. My 2cents...


My 2cents are to build your anchors out of bomber pieces.

I cannot imagine a scenario where I see a couple great placements for an anchor, but place a shitty one first, thus necesitating the use of your advice.

FLAG
By david doucette
May 10, 2013
Top of Intersection Rock, Joshua Tree NP.
Check out this video. It goes through setting up a belay for multipitch and the climber uses a cordelette to do it. one of the best vids i've seen showing this topic. i recommend practicing this setup a few feet off the ground and see how it feels. also great demo of proper rope management

Swapping Leads on Multi-Pitch Trad Routes
.

here's another thread about this topic/video;

mountainproject.com/v/helpful-...

thanks, david

FLAG
 
By Tom-onator
From This Galaxy
May 11, 2013
Tom-onator
ACR aka Alpine Cock Ring

You can purchase 30' of 7mm and 2 rap rings for about the same price as 1 of those pre-sewn get-ups and have 2 ACR's for multi-pitch belays.
This set up is also very inexpensive if you must leave it behind for a rappel anchor.

FLAG


Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
Page 1 of 1.