Alpine bolt reccomendations

I'd like to hear reccomendations for bolts to be used when hand drilling in the alpine setting. I've placed 3/8th inchers but that is a big job in hard granite. Are 5/16th bolts acceptable? If so what style? Split button heads? Are there others available? Thanks, Ken.

3/8" should be the minimum bolt size used anywhere now, and should be stainless.

Powers used to make a 5/16" 5-piece bolt that tested out at 15kN or so. The 2-1/4" length was my go-to bolt for hand drilling on lead in good granite.

As cited above, present day ethics requires that everything be 3/8 SS, and as I get the opportunity, I am replacing the 5/16 bolts I placed 10 years ago.

Ultimately it's your decision: "place nice, or place twice".

While I, in general, agree with the above about 3/8 stainless being a minimum; I think he's looking for alternatives where long term usability and safety are willing to be sacrificed in exchange for ease of placement, to be used for exploring potential routes which may not go anywhere and may not ever be repeated.

Such hardware should be reasonably safe short-term, be easy/fast to place with a hand drill, and be upgradable if the exploration proves fruitful. The intent is different from permanently bolting a new line.

Unfortunately, I don't have the experience to answer your question, but...
MountainTools carries this Fixe Wilderness button head - mtntools.com/cat/rclimb/bol… Which may be what you're looking for. I'd hope if your route does turn out worthwhile you would put the effort in to upgrade the hardware afterwards.

I have used the Fixe 5/16" a bit and they seem OK with one exception...you really have to flare out the edge of the hole because they can shatter the rock easy. They are WAY faster than any 3/8" though.

That said, a 2.25" Powers stud bolt isn't that much slower and of course you don't have to actually drill 2.25"

A big hammer helps as well

john strand wrote:A big hammer helps as well

Not necessarily.

And, on an "alpine" climb, weight (and space) might be a premium.

Interesting study on weight versus drilling speed:

taco thread on hammer weight v drilling speed

I prefer hand drilling with a lighter hammer and higher speed. Also, if you're using an SDS bit, you can bust the carbide insert loose with a heavy/hard hammer blow.

I think the guys that were fast, hit hard but were mostly quick.

Too light, can't hit hard enough to dig the bit into the rock. Too heavy...and...just can't sustain (and might break the bit). Happy medium in a well balanced and perfect weight hammer. Not an easy thing to figure out...

As as far as alpine bolts...I think if the route is worth doing, worth dragging a drill/hammer up, and, a bolt is really needed...then place a sustainable 3/8" stainless stud/bolt from the get go.

I used to place hand drilled 5/16" buttonheads (mid 80's) and, while solid at the time they were placed, they've all been jacked out and upgraded. They just don't last that long.

I'm not saying I'll drag the A5 club up to 14,000',,but one of those small "hammers' was it Petzl won't drill a 3/8" in good granite for shit..I guess the BD is about the only suitable mid sized hammer around now.

Unless it's a really good stance , hitting at max force is rare anyway, i prefer to let the tool work

5/16ths button heads are just as hard to drill as 3/8ths and you need a 2 lb sledge to hammer them in. Dinner plating is very common when you set the bolt.

3/8ths x 2.25" is doable but not with a carbide tip (Think Petzl rig) which takes forever.

Rather you need a HSS high speed steel bit, sharpened in order to drill a fast hole. Hurricane drill holder is what is used in this application, and it is heavy requires 2 wrenches. Cuts the drilling time in half or better.

Bottom line, you bring a 1/4" drill kit with 1/4" x 1.5" button head bolts and find some 2nd generation smc hangers. A light hammer and you are good to go.

Most of the guys I know that are hand drilling Grade IV-VI routes in the mountains are using 1/4" rigs.

Anybody that says you have to drill Stainless 3/8ths has never been on anything of consequence where drilling for even 10 minutes is not applicable.

with Theron's hangers

shop.vershke.com/Moses-Ligh…;jsessionid=6285AF2791003767568ED96C107F69F8.m1plqscsfapp03

mucci--I gotta disagree with some of this....SS vs plated doesn't mean anything in drilling time, just durability..

and you gotta stay there until the hole is ready, no half driven crap...if you only gonna drill a little bit, then bat hook it

In good quality granite on a decent stance, a 3/8" powers should be under 15 minutes..tops

The type of metal means nothing to a team trying to move really fast, I agree and was not trying to say the type of metal changes the drilling.

How much drilling? He did not say.

A 1/4" button head goes in under 5 min, more like 3 with a good stance.

Now, of course in a perfect world a stainless 5 piece bolt (not a wedge bolt!) is the BEST option. You can get 1 7/8ths" 4 piece powers which are even smaller, and a much better option still than a stud bolt.

However, lets say they have to drill 4 3/8ths bolts in one long day.. That is at least an hour or more of precious time.

If drilling 1/4" we are talking 20 min.

Hey, everybody wants fat bolts, so it should be no issue for a returning team to pop em out and spend a bit of time replacing the FA bolts if it gets popular.

Agreed..id rather a well done 1/4 to a shit 3/8 anyday

As too all 3/8 ss all time..well, stand there and do it sometime..good luck

Is the route high enough quality to be worth doing right?

Is the route high enough quality to be worth doing right?

Does that mean you have to think about others when you choose to do a FA?

I think "doing the route right" has a lot more to it than just bolting. No, I rarely think about others when doing an f/a..

That's a strange response.
The question I posed was intended to direct the discussion to a thought about "Yes, there are things that are a lot more work than others, but if the route is worth doing, is it worth putting the effort into it to make it a quality endeavor, and if not, then is it worth doing at all?"
Poor bolts are time bombs left to either be replaced by others to make them good, or to eventually be either too dangerous to climb or fail outright.
Neither of those options are great, so I think that if someone wants to place hardware, they should go with an option with some life in it.

2.25 3/8 SS, I use repurposed new style smc stainless hangers to save a bit of weight unless the route is going to be done often. takes me about 10 minutes to tap out a hole by hand from a stance, I have the petzl hammer, works fine in hard granite.

Apparently you didn't read what i typed ..Tony..but whatever.

The only new routes that get repeated are the ones that are sprayed all over the web, with fat bolts everywhere.

Start talking about alpine routes, the chance of a repeat outside of friends is next to nil.

If it is indeed THAT good, the FA team should go replace all the original hardware with fatties.

john strand wrote:Apparently you didn't read what i typed ..Tony..but whatever.

I read it, I just couldn't figure it clearly into the conversation.
I got that point that choice of bolts was not the only thing, but I didn't quite get teh whole thing in context, so it was somewhat strange to me.
Not reading it and not getting where you are headed with something are 2 different things. I tried to explain my position.
Can I get the courtesy of some effort on your part to do the same?

mucci wrote:Is the route high enough quality to be worth doing right? Does that mean you have to think about others when you choose to do a FA?

Have to? Or Should? I would consider if I leave junk that is only there for me (but turns to litter over time) Vs hardware that will stand the test of time and not require replacement in short order, with an unsafe and potentially hidden unsafe condition existing meanwhile.
I think doing it right matters. Whatever style you choose, using good hardware is superior to bad hardware.

mucci wrote:The only new routes that get repeated are the ones that are sprayed all over the web, with fat bolts everywhere. Start talking about alpine routes, the chance of a repeat outside of friends is next to nil. If it is indeed THAT good, the FA team should go replace all the original hardware with fatties.

I dunno. Most are not going to be ultra classics, but Birds of Fire sure broke that mold. And of course, the bolts needed to be replaced - even now... rusted heaps, half of them.