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By Sir Wanksalot
From County Jail
Dec 11, 2012

This thread got me thinking.
www.mountainproject.com/v/general-climbing/103989405

I often hear people say that Alpine climbers are the best out there, and that sporto's and pebble wrestlers are a bunch of pussies in comparison. I see myself as a recreational climber, and I find it annoying that there is this BS about sport is just an invisible TR and this and that.

Someone in the above post said they never hear sport climbers and boulderers making these negative comments about the other, but the inverse is not true. My though on it is this... sport climbing really starts at the 5.12 level, and at that point, you have invested a shit ton of time and you could likely give a crap about someone else's opinion.

Tradsters that can't climb hard boast about how inferior HARD climbing is because the ego must fine a way to justify that someone else is better than them.


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By Jonas Salk
Dec 11, 2012

Something real to say > Trolling.


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By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Dec 11, 2012
tanuki

In an effort to get this thread started in a manner that is appropriate, I will add this:


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By mugsy
Dec 11, 2012

The truth hurts.


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By Jeff J
From Bozeman
Dec 11, 2012

In an effort to get this thread started in a manner that is appropriate, I will add this:

>


My day just of much better !! I have not had a laugh that good for a while now.


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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 11, 2012
El Chorro

So, you think it's lame that people don't give you respect for sport climbing, but then you go on to say that people who don't climb 5.12 aren't really climbing?

I got news for ya buddy - the people climbing 5.8 trad or 5.10 sport are having just as much fun as you are. Probably a lot more actually. No doubt they are more fun to be around.

Get over yourself.


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By Sir Wanksalot
From County Jail
Dec 11, 2012

Ryan Williams wrote:
So, you think it's lame that people don't give you respect for sport climbing, but then you go on to say that people who don't climb 5.12 aren't really climbing? I got news for ya buddy - the people climbing 5.8 trad or 5.10 sport are having just as much fun as you are. Probably a lot more actually. No doubt they are more fun to be around. Get over yourself.


I'm not saying that I'm better than them, I'm stating an opinion about "sport" climbing. I have no issue with any of the disciplines, I just notice attitude in one direction not the other.


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By Glenn Schuler
From Monument, Co.
Dec 11, 2012
A grey fox skull wedged in a crack 100' up on a FA I was working on - don't see that every day...

.... Yawn.... so you guys think the Broncos got a chance against the Ravens Sunday?


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By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Dec 11, 2012
tanuki

When I was in college I ran over a chipmunk with a forklift. Boy, was that messy.

Edit to add: Glad you liked that, Jeff. Your video is pretty funny too. BTW, what do you think about Mystery Ranch? They are located in Bozeman. I just had some dealings with them regarding a warranty issue, and I was REALLY impressed with their customer service after the sale.


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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 11, 2012
El Chorro

Randy W. wrote:
I'm not saying that I'm better than them, I'm stating an opinion about "sport" climbing. I have no issue with any of the disciplines, I just notice attitude in one direction not the other.


What you fail to realize is that your "opinion" is in fact attitude in the other direction. Saying that sport climbing "starts at 5.12" is no different than a trad guy saying that sport climbing is inferior. The way you feel when trad guys put sport climbers down - that's the way you just made a whole lot of 5.10-5.11 sport climbers feel.


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By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Dec 11, 2012
Epic free solo with a pack on


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By Woodson
From Park City, Ut.
Dec 11, 2012
Climbing to ski the Fuhrer Finger Route. Photo by Darrell Finlayson

You said it man..nobody fucks w The Jesus! I like your style dude...


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By Dave Bn
From Fort Collins, CO
Dec 11, 2012
Dreamweaver

who cares?

When I was growing up I surfed.

Surfers>bogey-boarders>skim boarders

I also skated a lot and

vert>street>mini-ramp>roller-gayders doing anything.

It's human nature to attempt to set oneself apart from others based on their own subjective opinion.

... I digress.


A 20 hour day on an alpine route > driving to the crag, walking 5 minutes and clipping bolts.

That's just physics, brah.


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By Nate Reno
From Highlands Ranch, CO
Dec 11, 2012
Ellingwood Point Summit, Little Bear in the background.

pebble wrasslin pointless little boulders is just for getting better for those RAD sport lines!
->
hangdogging up those lame safely bolted sport routes is just to get good enough not to fall off of those inspiring trad routes!
->
traddin' at the crag 30 mins from the road is just to get better so you're more confident and safe, so you can get up that huge alpine peak!
->
now you can alpine up to the tippy top of some big magestic mountain!
by the time you get here, you're old, out of shape and crusty.

lots people just skip to some random step to begin with, then/or have too much fun at whatever step they're on and stay there for the most part.


/end rambling, I had about as much of a point as the hippo.


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By Mark E Dixon
From Sprezzatura, Someday
Dec 11, 2012
At the BRC

Randy W. wrote:
This thread got me thinking. www.mountainproject.com/v/general-climbing/103989405 I often hear people say that Alpine climbers are the best out there, and that sporto's and pebble wrestlers are a bunch of pussies in comparison. I see myself as a recreational climber, and I find it annoying that there is this BS about sport is just an invisible TR and this and that. Someone in the above post said they never hear sport climbers and boulderers making these negative comments about the other, but the inverse is not true. My though on it is this... sport climbing really starts at the 5.12 level, and at that point, you have invested a shit ton of time and you could likely give a crap about someone else's opinion. Tradsters that can't climb hard boast about how inferior HARD climbing is because the ego must fine a way to justify that someone else is better than them.


I rarely hear alpine climbers putting down anybody else.
It seems to me like it's strictly a trad thing. and only a minority of trad climbers, for that matter.


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By J Q
Dec 11, 2012
Me again!

Not understanding sport climbing: A week chufflet with a big ego but very little pain tolerance and too much fat.

Not understanding trad climbing: A noob from the gym who doesn't understand the irrelevance his situation and likes to make weak people mad.

The reward of understanding multiple disciplines: priceless.


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By bearbreeder
Dec 11, 2012

a good well rounded climber does sport, trad and boulders ...

if you climb harder trad, sport climbing and bouldering can be very useful to pull through cruxes ... personally every 5.12 or above trad climber i know does sport and boulders at some point ...

;)


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By J Q
Dec 11, 2012
Me again!

Ryan Williams wrote:
So, you think it's lame that people don't give you respect for sport climbing, but then you go on to say that people who don't climb 5.12 aren't really climbing?




Respect my authority!!!!!


Oh yea, it's not that they aren't climbing, it's that they aren't "sport climbing", or so I hear.

I'll bet they will come back, with a troop of boy scouts, a hemp cord, and an old swami belt.

Viva la Revolution!!!!


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Dec 11, 2012
modern man

Jonhy Q wrote:
Not understanding sport climbing: A week chufflet with a big ego but very little pain tolerance and too much fat. Not understanding trad climbing: A noob from the gym who doesn't understand the irrelevance his situation and likes to make weak people mad. The reward of understanding multiple disciplines: priceless.



bearbreeder wrote:
a good well rounded climber does sport, trad and boulders ... if you climb harder trad, sport climbing and bouldering can be very useful to pull through cruxes ... personally every 5.12 or above trad climber i know does sport and boulders at some point ... ;)


yep x2


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By Andy Novak
From Golden, Co
Dec 11, 2012
Living the High Life.

Nate Reno wrote:
pebble wrasslin pointless little boulders is just for getting better for those RAD sport lines! -> hangdogging up those lame safely bolted sport routes is just to get good enough not to fall off of those inspiring trad routes! -> traddin' at the crag 30 mins from the road is just to get better so you're more confident and safe, so you can get up that huge alpine peak! -> now you can alpine up to the tippy top of some big magestic mountain! by the time you get here, you're old, out of shape and crusty. lots people just skip to some random step to begin with, then/or have too much fun at whatever step they're on and stay there for the most part. /end rambling, I had about as much of a point as the hippo.


X2. This is wise, young ones.


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By Rajiv Ayyangar
From Portland, ME
Dec 11, 2012
Cut! Sadly my flash attempt met with dismal pump-failure two bolts later.

Everyone has a certain mix of enjoyment from difficult movement (let's call this "movement") and from danger/exposure/conditions/gear/everything else (let's call this "adventure").

People who place a high value on Adventure tend towards the alpine/trad end of the spectrum, and people who place a high value on Movement tend towards the sport/bouldering side. I'm talking preference here, not skill level - there are boulderers who are also great mountaineers, and Alpinists who could out-crank the best gym-broulderers around.

Most people, though, tend to be best at their preferred style, and a bit below-average in other styles, which is where envy comes into play... in both directions. The part of you-no matter how small-that craves adventure, will envy hard-core alpinists. Conversely, the part of you that appreciates hard and aesthetic movement will covet the V-hard fingers of dedicated boulderers.

If you feel inferior according to one metric, the natural reaction is to apply the other metric to restore your superiority. This type of recipro-spray happens every day, at every crag/mountain/gym, and should be unsurprising by now.

What IS surprising is that we actually (to use the original poster's words against him) "give a crap about someone else's opinion." Without going too far into the irony of complaining that sport climbers are too self-assured to deserve ridicule… clearly there is something else at play here. Why do we care so much about what different types of climbers think, and why do we keep forgetting that these judgment-passers use a different standard than ourselves?

This is, I think, the reason:

Divergence. Over the years, bouldering has gotten more bouldery, sport climbing has gotten more sporty, gym climbing has gotten more artificial (and way cooler), and trad/alpine climbing... well I don't know much about trad and alpine. Divergence is awesome and exciting, and it means that climbing is progressing on multiple fronts. It also means that the average climber understands less and less about what attracts people to other disciplines.

At the same time we all continue to define ourselves as climbers, and identify as part of a larger climbing community. We don't realize (or else we constantly forget) vastly different the disciplines have become. For instance, I do the bouldering/sport/gym thing, and I consider myself a climber. If I'd grown up in the days of rusty pitons, swami belts, and hip-belays, I don't think I'd have been a climber - maybe a recreational gymnast, or more likely, a couch-potato. I just don't have the huge cojones that guys from that era had (and still have). There are personalities who are climbers now, who would not have been just a short while ago, and yet we all still think of ourselves as climbers.

In conclusion, next time you feel like bashing another discipline, or complaining that you're being hated on, stop and ask a more interesting question: What does that person like about climbing that is different from what you like? After pondering that, carry on bashing and spraying, because those are some of the last activities every true climber enjoys.


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By DannyUncanny
From Vancouver
Dec 11, 2012

Don't forget that the ultimate goal of every climber is the top of mount Everest. Everyone that doesn't get there is a failure.


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By Alex Washburne
Dec 11, 2012
I eat crack for breakfast.

I don't think the "greater than"/"less than" symbols are logically appropriate, but the correct statement uses a "subset" symbol. I'll call this "c" for lack of a better way to write math on Mountainproject, and arrive at a factual statement describing the skill sets:

Bouldering c sport c trad c alpine.

Provided the skill of moving crash pads and spotting friends falling from boulders is not included, then we have reached an accurate statement of fact. Now, instead of worrying about self-worth if you're not an alpline climber, you can worry about whether or not Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory is an accurate description of reality, you can worry about the countability of alpine skill sets, and after enough time you'll again worry about self-worth as you spend your free time writing mathematical nonsense on Mountainproject forums.


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Dec 11, 2012
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

That alpine shit is cold- definitely not for pussies. I've noticed 'tude in almost every discipline. Attitude comes from assholes, not from disciplines.

I would also like to add that the goddamned Big Lebowski divergence that every thread seems to devolve into lately is absolutely wonderful.


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By mozeman
Dec 11, 2012

Dave Bn wrote:
who cares? When I was growing up I surfed. Surfers>bogey-boarders>skim boarders I also skated a lot and vert>street>mini-ramp>roller-gayders doing anything. It's human nature to attempt to set oneself apart from others based on their own subjective opinion. ... I digress. A 20 hour day on an alpine route > driving to the crag, walking 5 minutes and clipping bolts. That's just physics, brah.

What fucking planet you from?!?!


Street>park>fruit booters


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By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Dec 11, 2012
Epic free solo with a pack on

Yeah...street skating is way superior to vert skating.


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