AIARE & AAI Avalanche Level 2 Courses

Looking for some suggestions/insight regarding taking an Avy II course.

Part 1: I took an Avy I course on Mount Washington in NH and with bad weather on the field day and a practically solid ice snowpack, it really limited the hands on/field aspects of course. I felt like there was a lot of hands on stuff that ended up being discussed 'in theory'...

Since the Avy II course is much more focused on the 'in the field' part I'm thinking this is the sorta course that needs to be taught out West with a real avalanche snowpack, not just Tuckerman's Ravine. At stake is my education and hundreds of dollars for a flight and board. Do other think my concern over taking this level of a course on the East Coast is valid?

Part 2: AIARE vs American Avy Institute... Just browsing through the two companies' sites it seems they're really very similar, I can't discern any material difference. Seems like maybe the AAI staff maybe have more credentials than most guide services running AIARE courses? I know AIARE is just the curriculum but from the guides i've seen most are AMGA etc while AAI are for example, are more like professional avalanche forecasters.

I've taken the CAC Level 1 & 2 courses. I spent time in BC Canada split boarding so it made sense to take the level 1 course where I ski. I took my level 1 in Whistler. I got lots of information about local snowpack and forecasts. The CCA course had one class room night and two full days in the field. It sounds like your level 1 was all classroom?

I took my level 2 in Revelstoke. I also used to ski at Kicking Horse and Panorama. I wanted to check out a different snowpack in a different location. Whistler usually has a very stable snowpack due to the fact it never gets real cold, the snow is moist and is usually close to freezing. The Monshees and Purcells are a drier snow and colder climate. I learned about traveling in less straight forward avy terrain in that course due to location.

So I would definitely take an avalanche course somewhere out west. Mt Washington snowpack is so unstable after snowfall due to crazy wind loading and the extreme temperature changes. It seems you can't travel after any snow event. I've been skiing outside Whistler mountain when the forecast was extreme. You do that on Mt Washington you're probably dead. I dug a pit once in Tuckermans. I saw two layers with hoar frost separating them. Yikes!

I think you are spot on with the notion that a level two ought to include layers within the snowpack. Best place for that is in an intercontinental mountain range like the Rockies so either AAI (out of Jackson WY) or AIARE (Colorado, mostly?) are excellent options. Not sure so check it out - AAI might emphasize science/data pits a little more?

Bill Kirby wrote: It sounds like your level 1 was all classroom?

One day in class and one day in the field...

Thanks for the insights... I'm certainly leaning towards taking a course either in SW Colorado where I typically find myself traveling to ski or Montana where I've never been but has an avy 2 course at the Bell Lake Yurt.

Sounds like a light duty avy course, and not an AIARE or aai L1. Standard is three days, with most of days two and three in the field. I'd recommend a hut-based L2 after you thoroughly review the L1 material.n if you go the San jauns, check out kling mountain guides.

I've taken the level 1 twice many years apart. The first time i took it in Colorado in a thin early season snowpack as a climber primarily interested in avoiding avy terrain. The second time I took it in Utah as a skier interested in safely skiing avy terrain. The two experiences were completely and totally different so i'm really glad I took the level 1 over again.

I think doing classes in different snowpack types is a very good idea, and certainly going west would be best.

Tico wrote:Sounds like a light duty avy course, and not an AIARE or aai L1. Standard is three days, with most of days two and three in the field. I'd recommend a hut-based L2 after you thoroughly review the L1 material.n if you go the San jauns, check out kling mountain guides.

It was an AIARE certified course taught by national ski patrol, least I think that was what was on the silly cert they handed out.

Looks like there are several groups teaching Avy 2 that operate outta the Red Mnt Pass huts, Silverton Avalanche School being another. Why choose Kling over another? Silverton Avalanche School even has courses in GIS mapping etc which seems pretty cutting edge and advanced and be done by someone who is maybe a bit more emeresed in the materials?

Morgan Patterson wrote: One day in class and one day in the field... Thanks for the insights... I'm certainly leaning towards taking a course either in SW Colorado where I typically find myself traveling to ski or Montana where I've never been but has an avy 2 course at the Bell Lake Yurt.

What course was that? Did you get a certificate? I had take CAA's level 1 before level 2 plus they recommended that I have experience in the backcountry using what I learned in the level 1 before taking level 2.

One thing I remember now is level 1 was like high school biology but level 2 was like college chemistry 101. Haha..

An aiare L1 is 24 hours of instruction. If you didn't do that, it wasn't one. Shoot Kling an email and ask why he's different that the Silverton school. I don't know why you think a resort or caic forecaster is better/different than a guide. Most forecasting is done mostly telemetrically, which is different than how you'll operate as a skier.

Tico wrote: Shoot Kling an email and ask why he's different that the Silverton school. I don't know why you think a resort or caic forecaster is better/different than a guide. Most forecasting is done mostly telemetrically, which is different than how you'll operate as a skier.

One great idea and another great point! Thanks Tico... I have a buddy in Ouray who is rooting for a SW CO course.

No prob, shoot me a message if you come out and want a beer or to take a tour.

Tico wrote:No prob, shoot me a message if you come out and want a beer or to take a tour.

Thanks man... that's awfully generous of ya! I take it ur in the Ouray/Silverton area?

I think my concerns about the 'whose teaching' comes down to a question of if/what would be the difference between a guiding service vs an 'institute' like the AAI teaching... will the institue have a more specilization and depth of knowledge than a guiding service who I assume does this education work to supplement real guiding work? Or is it all same just the personality you're working with?

Does AAI really not run the aiare classes? that surprises me.
I wouldn't take the Institute part of the AAI too seriously, they are guide company / climbing school, not some sort of academic or scientific institution. Not intended as an insult to them by the way, they're one of the few companies of that type that I actually respect.

The latter. Many guides do a lot ofbavy education, kling being one. He runs some insane number of L1's every year, like 14 or 15, many on a contract basis for other "schools". Many of his employees are or have been caic forecasters. His livelihood depends on good product. Having "institute" or "school" in your name doesn't necessarily mean you're not a guide service. But you should do your own research, shoot out somet emails and see who gives you the warm fuzzies. Curriculum is pretty standardized industrial industry-wide at this point, L2 is basically introducing and clinicing observation at the swag standard.

You're mixing up aai's. There are three of them.

Jacob Smith wrote:Does AAI really not run the aiare classes? that surprises me. I wouldn't take the Institute part of the AAI too seriously, they are guide company / climbing school, not some sort of academic or scientific institution. Not intended as an insult to them by the way, they're one of the few companies of that type that I actually respect.

That was my sense... and the use of the quotations around 'institute' lol...

If budget is a concern, a Level 2 course in the Chic Chocs is perhaps something to consider?

I believe it's more of a maritime snowpack, not as beneficial as a Level 2 course in Colorado or Wyoming, but likely a hell of lot better than Mt. Washington (which takes a 2 mile approach before you even enter avalanche terrain).

I took my level 1 from the Natl Ski Patrol. I don't know about availability ( I am not a patroler ) but it was an awesome class. 3rd one I took since '94 and I thought it was the best. They ran some awesome role playing scenarios and I thought focused much more on the psychological problems of Avy and less on the Tech stuff.

I took my AAI Level 3 a few years ago and have gone through their progression of classes and have nothing to say but good things. All the instructors are extremely experienced. After talking to lots of folks who have taken both AAI and AIARE courses at all the levels I have come to a few conclusions. In the upper level courses I feel that AAI is more oriented to guideing and AIARE is more focused on ski patroling. It seams to me like AIARE focus more time on opening and closing routes and throwing bombs where AAI talked more about guiding a group in Avalanche terrain. I have also found that it seams like AAI is more nurturing and will help you get through concepts you don't understand. AIARE seams a little more of a tough guy if you miss small things like rounding of numbers in a tempature gradient during a test for example. Both are quality providers and I am sure you would get a lot out of either but I would consider which would work best for what you what you want to do in the future. On the topic of east vs. west coast classes, I guess it depends on the current weather and snowpack but I would think that the west coast might be a benfit in the level 2 & 3 classes.

Ty Falk wrote:I took my AAI Level 3 a few years ago and have gone through their progression of classes and have nothing to say but good things. All the instructors are extremely experienced. After talking to lots of folks who have taken both AAI and AIARE courses at all the levels I have come to a few conclusions. In the upper level courses I feel that AAI is more oriented to guideing and AIARE is more focused on ski patroling. It seams to me like AIARE focus more time on opening and closing routes and throwing bombs where AAI talked more about guiding a group in Avalanche terrain. I have also found that it seams like AAI is more nurturing and will help you get through concepts you don't understand. AIARE seams a little more of a tough guy if you miss small things like rounding of numbers in a tempature gradient during a test for example. Both are quality providers and I am sure you would get a lot out of either but I would consider which would work best for what you what you want to do in the future. On the topic of east vs. west coast classes, I guess it depends on the current weather and snowpack but I would think that the west coast might be a benfit in the level 2 & 3 classes.

Thanks Ty... this is the kinda info I was looking for...