Acceptable use of doubles

I'm one that wants to understand the why, how, what and all that so I bring this to your attention for clarification from the more knowledgeable amongst us.

The story:

So, I bought a set of Mammut doubles and the Climb Tech Alpine Up and decided to go try them out. I've never used doubles before or the Alpine Up so I wanted to aquaint myself with the technique on some climbs I'm familiar with and are fairly easy. Granted, we were there to learn the particulars of just rope management right now... and to have a good time outdoors.

I scramble up the backside to set up a top rope with the doubles and there is another climber already there setting up a top rope for a different route. I set two cams (hand size) in a crack, connect the two, and figure eight on a bight (9mm static) for one side anchor. I bowline around a large (three foot diameter) chickenhead the other side anchor arm. The two arm anchor extending over the edge with a B.F.K. at the end. This took me about all of 120 seconds to complete. After I finished and was turning to scramble down the backside I noticed this other climber had stopped what he was doing and was watching me set up my anchor.

Now, he critiqued my anchor, and said that it was not safe because of lack of redundancy (only two arms). I blew off this part of his criticism, but it was the other part that I questioned myself.

The second part of the critique, and the one I'm questioning, is how the doubles would be connected to the masterpoint.

Below is how I set it up and was told this is incorrect. Please clarify if so, and why because he could not.

The ropes I'm using are the Mammut Genesis 8.5 which are rated for half and twin. This climber told me I should be setting it up as you would twins for top rop, as such below.



As stated before, my experience is very low with doubles, but my belief was that in the top picture there would be less wear and tear in this configuration, but they could be used either way. Please educate me!

I think either one is fine, but I would use the bottom photo setup. Two less lockers required. Set it up like you would a single rope. It's pretty unusual to toprope with twins, unless you're belaying from the top (as in multipitch, but I could see doing it for the belay practice).

My two cents.

Edit: I don't think your top photo is "wrong."

Both of those set ups look extremely safe to me. If your anchor fails, it will not be because you chose the set-up in picture A vs picture B. I also would chose set-up B for simplicity.

Here's something else to consider. Double ropes are almost never set up in a standard YOYO told-rope like you have. There's generally no need for doubles in a single pitch setting you'd typically set up at the crag. Whenever your TR'ing on doubles your generally following a route and being belayed directly through an anchor.

Last point. In a top-rope set up, you probably don't need to use both ropes. I commonly see doubles used to lead single pitch ice climbs. After the leader is done, he'll set up a top rope, rap, and people climb on one rope instead of both. TR falls aren't always necessarily generating as much force. That being said, it's not ideal to do this and again, this is happening generally on ice only because most of the time your never falling.

highinfatuation.com/blog/st…

The only issue I can see with your original set-up, where the strands are separated, is if any force generated climbing/falling/lowering could pinch the biners together and cause excess friction/sticking rope.

The second option, where both run through the same biners seems ideal on a top-rope set-up to me, since the ropes should be feeding through at the same rate in all cases. I imagine, on lead, that with a set of halfs/doubles you could create a friction point where one rope is sawing on the other where at one point both are clipped through the same biner, and otherwise clipped to different points of pro.

And that's my $0.02 on it.

I've never used doubles before, so mostly just spit-balling here. With the first set-up is it possible that in the event of a fall the downward pull could cause the two sets of biners to pinch the rope, making lowering difficult/impossible? Somewhat similar to a garda hitch.

Edit: Looks like johnnyrig beat me to it.

- clip the loose loop on the top photo ... if it pulls through everything fails ... unlikely but theres no reason not to clip it

- separating the strands is absolutely and utterly fine ... in fact if youre using double rope technique its likely "better"

- you dont need 4 lockers ... one on each strand is enuff ... KISS

- lead up something with the doubles and set up a top belay ... you realistically wont learn too much setting up TRs with doubles

- theres tons of folks out there who will tell you the millions of ways yr gonna die ... if hes telling you that 2 SOLID arms arent "redundant" hes and idiot thats out there to show off how "safe" he is ... it means that every fcukang 2 bolt anchor out there aint "redundant"

;)

bearbreeder wrote:- separating the strands is absolutely and utterly fine ... in fact if youre using double rope technique its likely "better"

It's not better. Depending how the rope/biner combo lies, there can be drag when lowering a climber. If you are going to use this technique, use only one biner per rope and align so the spines are close to each other and the gates are facing out.

#2 photo is your best setup tor a twin TR.

rocknice2 wrote: It's not better. Depending how the rope/biner combo lies, there can be drag when lowering a climber. If you are going to use this technique, use only one biner per rope and align so the spines are close to each other and the gates are facing out. #2 photo is your best setup tor a twin TR.

if you lead up using double technique its likely "better"

as on a wandering pitch youll be pulling up each strand at different rates for the "TR" climber, and if they are handogging on TR double ropes with widely spaced pro they will mostly be on one strand

either way will work, but generally keeping the strands separate when ropes are moving at different speeds is considered more "ideal"

It also reduce the chance of the strands getting twisted around each other

for twins technique its irrelevant

;)

Just a head's up...a lot of times in the situation you have here, you might rappel off, in which case you would do so on one color. You need to be super careful that you and your partners do not mistake the situation for one with knotted ropes, which you will mostly when multipitching, and then on two colors.

Rapping on two colors with a TR set-up as shown is a potentially deadly error. No matter how experienced or frequent the partner, I always clarify this at the anchor.

Thank you for the replies.

I did not want to go balls out the first time using something different than what I've been using, hence the baby steps of just running the ropes through the belay device and getting a feel for management sake. It will progress, for I have some climbs in mind that the doubles may be advantageous.

The twin set up seemed fine to me as well, and what you guys have mentioned makes perfect sense. I've appeared to have broken my own rule in trying to keep things K.I.S.S.

bearbreeder wrote:- clip the loose loop on the top photo ... if it pulls through everything fails

The loop has been flipped to the other side of the knot and if pulled would be obstructed from coming back through the knot by the anchor arm strands. Am I remiss in still not clipping this?

BigFeet wrote: The loop has been flipped to the other side of the knot and if pulled would be obstructed from coming back through the knot by the anchor arm strands. Am I remiss in still not clipping this?

I think it still has a failure mode; I'd clip just to be sure. Or tie your anchor so there is not that extra loop.

BigFeet wrote: Am I remiss in still not clipping this?

FrankPS wrote: I think it still has a failure mode; I'd clip just to be sure. Or tie your anchor so there is not that extra loop.

Flipping the loop over the knot would prevent it from pulling, and this solution is pretty standard. Clipping is probably slightly more ideal, but passing the loop through the master point would prevent it from pulling through.

If you pulled it through its fine

Its a good habit to clip the loose loop though just in case u forget to pull it through when yr cold tired hungey and in the dark

;)

I agree that either method is fine. I usually only have small ultralight lockers, and find that rope handling seems a little easier in a top-rope set-up if I don't run both stands through a single small biner in twin-fashion. When I clip the two strands separately , I usually rig things so that the carabiners for the separate strands are not at the same level and can't collide or rub or bind or interact in any way.

Bearbreeder mentions that sometimes two separate biners are best. One such time is when the doubles run in somewhat separated parallel lines and the toprope anchor is midway between them.

I'd clip your extra loop to close off the TR system.

The only time I think I might use twin or doubles for top rope would be if you wanted two people to climb the route at the same time.

Other than that the only thing to consider which no one seems to be talking about is the rope stretch. As with any skinny rope you need to offset the lack of diameter with elongation. So if you were to use one of those ropes like Max was saying as many climbers do ice climbing there is significantly more rope stretch than with your average single rope(9.8mm)

So if I were to use a two rope system just for single pitch top roping I would consider those things.

If you only are belaying one climber and walking to the top of the cliff to build an anchor I would use a thick(9.8mm to 10.5mm) single rope.

Using the double loop figure 8 (bunny ears) will eliminate the whole “clip the extra loop” issue most people are having with your set up.
animatedknots.com/fig8loopd…

Alternatively, tie two separate figure 8 knots on the anchor rope with a bit of slack between the two knots, one hanging just slightly higher than the other. Clip the two ropes separately to a different figure 8 knot, making sure the higher climbing rope is not touching the anchoring rope. This will eliminate the issue with your first picture where the biners can pinch the rope and create more friction.

DRusso wrote:The only time I think I might use twin or doubles for top rope would be if you wanted two people to climb the route at the same time.

Agreed, you normally wouldn't use half ropes for top-roping. But I do use them, and not infrequently at that, for shorter single-pitch trad leads where it is pleasanter for the leader to lower off and belay from the ground.

Just to clarify the situation, doubles were used to top rope because they are new, along with the belay device I was using. I chose to use the doubles for first step practice on two new pieces of gear for me and my partner.

You will notice, in the background of the second picture, a 60m x 10.2mm Mammut Gravity Classic that I have used to top rope, lead climb, and solo top rope this particular route. I left it at home on purpose.

We did do two belays from the top each. A quick reconfigure of the anchor to go in direct and we were belaying off the harness over the edge using a DMM Pivot. The Pivot is fairly new for me too, and I wanted to see how it worked with the doubles. There was no need to rappel, for the walk off is quick and easy.

It is a short climb but gave us a better understanding of stacking the rope, having two ropes run through your hands, etc.

Lame or whatever, I'd like to know what I'm doing before I'm wishing I knew what I was doing. At my age, I've lost most of that cavalier attitude I guess.

I'll be leading with them on the next trip, so I may have more questions for you guys - stay tuned.

Bigfoot,

I think practicing with your new gear is a good idea, not lame.

rgold wrote: Agreed, you normally wouldn't use half ropes for top-roping. But I do use them, and not infrequently at that, for shorter single-pitch trad leads where it is pleasanter for the leader to lower off and belay from the ground.

Ive top roped with my doubles too. Once because we had time to do a few laps on a route after doing a long multi pitch. I've also gone out on weekends planning on lead one route after the other but those plans changed due to crowds of top ropers camped out on the ice all day.

you're smart to practice with new gear. The only thing lame is if people give you shit for being smart and safe.