5 piece question

I'd like to preface this to prevent a bit of the unnecessary yer gonna die comments.

I have placed dozens of bolts, different brands types and in different rock types etc.

That being said I came across an anchor recently that had several of the blue spacer rings (obviously 5 piece bolts) that were mashed between the hanger and the rock on 2 and had fallen off of the third anchor bolt. The ring was recovered on the ground.

My question is what would cause this? over tightening? an uneven hole?

I did do a quick re read of the ASCA literature and there was nothing mentioned about this.

Thanks for any productive input!

Sam

Most common reason is a too-tight hole (you tend to see overly smashed heads as well), overtorquing is another culprit, and the (rarely seen) 3rd is incorrect reassembly (putting the blue sleeves in the wrong spot when the bolt is assembled with the hanger).

Both of the common reasons - too tight hole and overtorquing - can affect the strength of the bolt. But the reality is that a huge percentage of all 5-piece bolts ever installed were overtorqued, and a good percentage were placed in (slightly) too small holes, and they still don't break much. The bolt design is very robust and time tested.

I' assuming they were washers placed there to increase sheer value strength.

Greg is for sure the expert.

On a side note: It's amazing how quick a hot bit will lose material off the shoulders and subsequently drill narrower holes.

For my own learning:

Pics? I canna visualize it. Old? New? What size bolts and hangers? The ring on the ground - did the bolt pull out of the cone and hole?

I've been using the 1/2" x 4.75" powerbolts - it seems like the only blue plastic is between the two sleeves, in the middle of the assembly - nowhere near the hanger/washer end.

I would be remiss not to add that we're all gonna die.

I'm afraid I don't have pictures.

I believe there were washers, though now that I think of it there may not have been.

They were new bolts placed fairly recently thus being able to find the ring on the ground. The ring found was fairly intact except where it has been mashed. the mashed portion of the plastic was probably 1/8th of an inch wide.

As I didn't pull any bolts I can't speak to how long they are, though they're in granite so I'd guess 2.5-3"?

The bolts in question are 1/2" x 2.75", stainless studs and hangers. My bit had some miles on it and hence a pretty tight hole. It is a bomber 3 bolt anchor with chain and links.

The shorter (3" and under?) Power-bolt doesn't have two sleeves seperated by a compression ring, just one sleeve and the blue compression-ring between the sleeve and the bolt-hanger/washer/bolt-head.

I've extracted a number of the old 3/8" rawls - seems like the spacer got mashed up into a 10mm hanger fairly often.

But that's neither here nor there.

Locker's wisdom comes not from knowing where we're going, but where we came from.

In other words, we're born to die.

Just the cycle of life....

As for "I have placed dozens of bolts, different brands types and in different rock types etc."

Well... having sex a dozen or so times doesn't make you Dr Ruth, does it?

Perhaps in your own mind, I guess. Regardless, kindly supply references for your sexual/and/or/bolting prowess so we might adequately judge the experience gotten from "dozens" of "bolts" of "various brands" in "different rock types".

Following from that, it seems everyone "knows" how to place a bolt and "finish off with a quicklink", yet no one has a clue that for Petzl Mallions the tightening spec is just beyond finger tight. Guess that's why I get all the girls. I know how to properly place them.

But as long as you send, that's all that matters. Right?

I've never bolted a route, but in our common construction application, we rotate between four or so bits ( one per hole ) to keep heat damage at a min. Hope this helps.
-Mackley
P.S. Thanks to everyone, intelligently, installing/replacing bolts out there.

just read here - dev.rapbolting.com/docs/Pow…

that the blue ring is designed to be crushed! neat-o

Jay Samuelson wrote:The shorter (3" and under?) Power-bolt doesn't have two sleeves seperated by a compression ring, just one sleeve and the blue compression-ring between the sleeve and the bolt-hanger/washer/bolt-head.

The stainless 5-piece, in 2-3/4" does have a small spacer separated from the sleeve by the blue compression ring. The carbon steel version doesn't have this small spacer. Just FYI.

Michael Schneiter wrote: The stainless 5-piece, in 2-3/4" does have a small spacer separated from the sleeve by the blue compression ring. The carbon steel version doesn't have this small spacer. Just FYI.

Just a heads up, the new PowerBolt+ version from Powers uses a longer spacer sleeve now ( PB+ info) See the picture below, the new PowerBolt+ is on the right. The older stainless version, that Michael is talking about is in the center for reference, these Powerbolts have a longer expansion sleeve, leaving less room for a spacer between the compression bushing and the washer.

That thing on the left is the latest revision of the legacy bolt. Things are coming along nicely! Its finally patent pending, no more big ugly proprietary hanger, you can use any hanger with a 3/8" diameter bolt hole. No specialized tool for removal and much easier to use than the previous version. Progress is slow but we're working on it!

Legacy

Chris, that legacy looks nice! Has the removal process changed?

The new powers expansion clip looks very similar to the kb3. That is quite the change in the short version now having a 5 the peice.

Looks like those new 5 piece bolts are gonna be a bit trickier to remove...

Any idea when the legacy bolt might become available?

dnoB ekiM wrote:Chris, that legacy looks nice! Has the removal process changed?

No more tool/specialty pry-bar for the removal process. I'll shoot a quick video for youtube at some point to demo. Not exactly sure on a release yet, but its coming sooner than later! I'd be surprised if it was out this year, we will see though!

nbrown wrote:Looks like those new 5 piece bolts are gonna be a bit trickier to remove...

+1.