Home - Destinations - iPhone/Android - Partners - Forum - Photos - Deals - What's New
Login with Facebook
 ADVANCED
3 climbers, 1 route
View Latest Posts in This Forum or All Forums
   Page 1 of 2.  1  2   Next>   Last>>
Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
 
By mozeman
Jul 21, 2012

Was just wondering what the best way to go about muli-pitch routes with a group of three. In the past I have done it where there is a leader and then one of the climbers following is tied in on a bite about 10 feet in front of the last climber tied into the other end. I don't like this method because if any of the followers falls then so does the other.

So I am wondering what is the best way to go about this. It should also be noted that we will can use a 2 rope system. So how do you guys do this/what is the best way?


FLAG
By LeeAB
Administrator
From ABQ, NM
Jul 21, 2012
Once we landed we headed to Font to find a place to stay for the night before doing a day of wine tasting and heading to Buoux.

Belay both seconds at the same time with an ATC guide or Reverso off of the anchor on separate ropes and climbing about 10-20 feet apart.


FLAG
By Derek Huff
Jul 21, 2012

Thanks for posting this twice.... YER GONNA DIE!


FLAG
By mozeman
Jul 21, 2012

Derek Huff wrote:
Thanks for posting this twice.... YER GONNA DIE!

dang...


FLAG
By Buff Johnson
Jul 31, 2012
smiley face

3 men enter, 1 man leave!


FLAG
By David Appelhans
From Lafayette
Jul 31, 2012
Imaginate

mozeman wrote:
In the past I have done it where there is a leader and then one of the climbers following is tied in on a bite about 10 feet in front of the last climber tied into the other end. I don't like this method because if any of the followers falls then so does the other.


Two ropes are usually best, but if you are doing it with one rope in the way you described, try tying the second climber in on an extra long bite, like 4 feet. This will help prevent the third follower from pulling the second climber off.


FLAG
By Woodchuck ATC
Jul 31, 2012
Rock Wars, RRG, 2008

PRACTICE please, the rope management, the belaying, the anchoring, the tie ins, all of it somewhere safe before you go for it on the wall. Seriously.


FLAG
By everbrad
From Inland Empire, CA
Aug 2, 2012

two ropes are best but if you want to use only one just shorten your pitches to just under half a rope (not easy for most climbs so study your topos) and have your first climber tie into the mid point then bring your seconds up one at time.

. . . it appears the administrators caught your double post in time to spar yer life. mps users take these forums quite seriously. user beware!


FLAG
By TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Aug 2, 2012
Me on One Pitch Wonder at Whitesides.  Photo credits to Kyle Jones and his lucky anti-rain jacket.

Using twin or double ropes are best for this. Tie in the two followers at the ends of the rope. Leading on twins is easier for an inexperienced belayer since both ropes are fed equally. Once at the anchor, belay both climbers in guide mode. Stagger their climbing distance by 20' so they don't hit each other in case of rope stretch during a fall. This is definitely best if the route traverses at all, because with twins both ropes will always be clipped into gear. Using a single with a trail can cause a lot of drag when clipping into all the pieces. Or just clip the trail into the important directional pieces. Don't do caterpillar style because it is very time consuming. Whenever you are using an atc in guide mode, be sure you know how to do a belay change over. If someone falls into the air, doesn't know how to aid the rope, they will be stuck unless you know how to unweight the atc. If you don't know this skill, use the atc regularly and be on terrain your followers are unlikely to fall on.


FLAG
By Medic741
From Pittsford, New York
Aug 2, 2012
When I was a bum at Frey

If using a guide I'd recommend having an experienced climber show you how to redirect the brake to lower your climber at the VERY least if you use the device


FLAG
By Rob Gordon
From Hollywood, CA
Aug 3, 2012
Tough Mantle Problem.  Haven't sent yet...

Never thought about the problem of using an atc guide in this situation. Interesting.

Would love to hear someone explain the situation more thoroughly.


FLAG
By TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Aug 3, 2012
Me on One Pitch Wonder at Whitesides.  Photo credits to Kyle Jones and his lucky anti-rain jacket.

Rob Gordon wrote:
Never thought about the problem of using an atc guide in this situation. Interesting. Would love to hear someone explain the situation more thoroughly.


When the second falls into the air and cannot start climbing again, the atc guide will stay weighted. You cannot lower them in a controlled fashion when the atc guide is still in that mode. There are two methods to release the weight, the proper and the scary. The scary, you can use a nut tool to hook the loop on the front of the atc guide and pull the hook upwards towards the anchor. This is scary because it is not controlled at all. There is wide open and locked. In the wide open, the second will descend VERY rapidly. You can do this in maybe "20' bursts". The proper method would be to do a belay change over. The easiest way is with a cordalette. Connect the cordalette to the rope leading to the second with a klimheist(sp?) and the other end to the anchor using a munter muled off. Use the nut tool as described before to release the atc guide onto the klimheist. Now the cordalette is weighted and atc not weighted. Remove the atc or undo the guide mode and put it into lower mode. Transfer the weight of the second back to the atc by releasing the mule and then lower using the munter. This will put the weight back onto the atc and now you can lower normally.

If you are climbing multi-pitch and don't know some of these techniques you could get yourself into trouble. Knowing how to do belay change overs and setting up the klimheist and munter mule to the anchor are all very important techniques. It is very similar to setting up pulley systems. Knowing the pulley system can definitely help in many situations, even simple ones like a rope getting stuck. If you are climbing multi, I would suggest getting the Self-Rescue book and familiarizing yourself with some of this stuff. Then get a guide or someone experienced with these techniques to go over it with you, because I left out some details like friction hitches (backups) and how to change atc from guide to lower without removing it from the anchor. It is a great way not to be the subject of a thread like the Epinephrin one in the Nevada section. It is also very easy to practice on the ground with a partner.


FLAG
By Rob Gordon
From Hollywood, CA
Aug 3, 2012
Tough Mantle Problem.  Haven't sent yet...

Thanks.


FLAG
By skiclimber
Aug 3, 2012
jibbing at chasm lake

climbing is dangerous!


FLAG
By Medic741
From Pittsford, New York
Aug 3, 2012
When I was a bum at Frey

IF YOU TAKE THE ATC OUT IT MUST BE BACKED UP by a mmoh of the climbing rope into anchor. If the cord fails or kleimheist slips without this backup your climber will fall and die. These systems must be redundtant, and releasable under load. Get a rescue book.

Better and less risky:
Redirect the brake strand through one point of the anchor. Backup with prussik to redirected side of break. Clip to leg loop. Put a cord through nose, redirect and tie a bight. Tighten your leg Prussik to take slack out of system and pull on cord through nose to open your guide. Lower with one hand sliding the prussik, the other feeding the rope. I'd you lose control your prussik will help catch the climber. . Harder to screw up basically especially for a new climber

You should be proficient at this before using the device in a real climb. I would also recommend knowing how to set up a haul system.


FLAG
By AKM1878
Aug 14, 2012

Medic's way of lowering on a guide is more favorable in my opinion. Chances are that you will never need to actually do this, particularly on moderate routes.

Back to the OP, TomCaldwell hit that one right on, use doubles or twins. The choice would depend on the route or what you have. I prefer doubles when climbing with parties of 3.


FLAG
By Doug Hemken
Administrator
Aug 14, 2012
On Everleigh Club Crack.  Photo by Burt Lindquist.

Two ropes.

Know your systems.

Minimize change-of-leader.


FLAG
By jmeizis
From Colorado Springs, CO
Aug 14, 2012
The Beginning of Mr. Clean (5.8) at the Barkeater Cliffs in Adirondack Park NY.

It depends on the route. So I'll give you the three different ways I've done it.

On routes with long pitches that are difficult enough that someone could fall: Each climber gets a rope. Leader leads dragging two, belays both seconds at the same time and then one of the seconds drags up the third rope for the third climber. You can make this faster if everyone in the party is competent enough with ropework and the ledges are big for flipping the rope stack. Keep in mind this is a fuckload of rope and a lot of shit going on. If everyone doesn't have a clear understanding of what's going on there is a good chance of someone finding themselves not clipped to the anchor or not actually being on belay.

On routes with long pitches where the difficulty is relatively low for followers: Two ropes. Leader drags two ropes. Weakest person gets their own rope, other two are tied in to second rope, one on the end, one on a bight. Not as much rope to deal with but the transition from the follower on the bight to the one on the end can be hard if they don't listen or you're not prepared for it. Mostly communication can be annoying here because you have two seconds on the same rope. If the bottom climber doesn't listen the can create a lot of slack climbing up the other climbers ass and then take a bit of a toprope whipper. If it's easy enough terrain you're using this technique then that little toprope whipper may end their day.

On routes with pitches less than 100 ft.: Depending on whether it's difficult or not I may use one or two ropes. If it's fairly difficult I'll tie in on a bight in the middle and put two of the followers on other ends. Then one of the seconds drags the rope for the third climber. If it's less difficult and short pitches (75 feet or less) I may tie into my bight in the middle, two climbers on the other end and then the third climber on a bight on one side. This the easiest for communication and rope management but you really have to know that you can make it to the belay. It would suck greatly to run out of rope in the middle of a pitch and have a 4 person hanging belay.

Ah shit, I just realized you were asking about a group of three. Forget everything I just said above.



Easy way: Leader leads on two ropes (doubles are great because they're thin and light), each second climbs on their own strand, usually staggered so they aren't stepping on each other. Treat both strands as a single rope when clove hitching to the anchor and stacking the ropes and you'll have less mess. Don't do the bight thing unless the terrain is really easy. You already stated a good reason why. If pitches are real short (less than 100 ft.) you can fold the rope in half and lead on a bight in the middle. Don't get screwed by being too short on rope though.

Easiest way: Come to Colorado, hire me as a guide and let me do all this rope crap. If you want to climb with that many people at once and are asking on the internet then this is the safest, easiest way, and you'll learn how to do it well on your own.

Also TomCaldwell, you don't need to do a weight transfer just because the ATC is loaded in guide mode. Just a simple (to me) redirect of the brake strand and the device itself with a backup on the brake strands should be fine. Although if both seconds are hanging and you've got some rope drag going I could see maybe having to do this. Depends on the situation and how far you need to lower them. Damn I talk to much.


FLAG
By Medic741
From Pittsford, New York
Aug 15, 2012
When I was a bum at Frey

Lowering in this fashion is a good skill as well because you can tr climbers from the top, not holding them off your harness when theyre hang dogging and you're in a good position to take some pretty cool pics


FLAG
By kilonot
Aug 15, 2012

I've done it with two single ropes. Middle person tied to both ropes and unclips first from pro while clipping the second. Middle belays up the third who cleans.

As far as lowering in guide mode....You could also lower by creating a munter hitch off your belay loop with the brake strand. Then use a nut tool or loop of cord to release the Guide.


FLAG
By Stich
From Colorado Springs, Colorado
Aug 15, 2012
Coffee after freezing our asses off near James Peak.

Actually, you climb with a weaker third person that you expect to die on the climb, thus giving fresh orc meat to the remaining two climbers.

I have done routes with three on one rope with the third tied in the middle with a butterfly knot. I have also climbed with two tied in close to each other near the end of the rope on long slab routes so they could climb together. This was on the First Flatiron and worked really well, since no one is going to fall on that.

I prefer two ropes now, so I would go with that system.


FLAG
By Kenan
Aug 15, 2012
Shelf Rd

A nice illustration of safely releasing a weighted ATC guide:


FLAG
By Tristan B
From La Crescenta, CA
Aug 15, 2012
Hanging out on Royal Arches

Using one rope for 3 climbers - When the leader gets to the belay he pulls up the rope and fixes the line for the second to TR solo w/mini trax or grigri, then belay the third guy up normal. Simple, easy, and light, but not as fast.


FLAG
By RandyR
Aug 15, 2012

TomCaldwell wrote:
Using twin or double ropes are best for this. Tie in the two followers at the ends of the rope. Leading on twins is easier for an inexperienced belayer since both ropes are fed equally. Once at the anchor, belay both climbers in guide mode. Stagger their climbing distance by 20' so they don't hit each other in case of rope stretch during a fall. This is definitely best if the route traverses at all, because with twins both ropes will always be clipped into gear. Using a single with a trail can cause a lot of drag when clipping into all the pieces. Or just clip the trail into the important directional pieces. Don't do caterpillar style because it is very time consuming. Whenever you are using an atc in guide mode, be sure you know how to do a belay change over. If someone falls into the air, doesn't know how to aid the rope, they will be stuck unless you know how to unweight the atc. If you don't know this skill, use the atc regularly and be on terrain your followers are unlikely to fall on.


I'm not 100% sure about this, but I don't believe that you're supposed to even FOLLOW on a single twin rope, but it is acceptable on a half rope.

I've done half ropes with a team without experience belaying with half-rope technique. Just have each follower belay one strand. You'll get the best half-rope belay of your life.


FLAG
By Auto-X Fil
From NEPA and Upper Jay, NY
Aug 15, 2012

Yeah, don't follow on a single twin on hard terrain. Weighting that over an edge is scary.

My preferred method, since I do a lot (most?) of my multi-pitch with 3 people, is skinny ropes rated as twins and doubles. Something around 8mm. That gives the leader the option to clip both strands as twins, or to split them as doubles, while giving each follower their own strand.


FLAG
By Conor Byrne
Aug 15, 2012

i was expecting something really dirty in this thread


FLAG


Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
Page 1 of 2.  1  2   Next>   Last>>