Home - Destinations - iPhone/Android - Partners - Forum - Photos - Deals - What's New
Login with Facebook
 ADVANCED
2:1 Haul Setup - Rate my rigging
View Latest Posts in This Forum or All Forums
   Page 3 of 3.  <<First   <Prev   1  2  3
Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
 
By Craig Childre
From Lubbock, Texas
Apr 5, 2013
Potrero Mexico, Sport Climbing Mecca.

Have you considered using a couple of DMM Revolvers in place of the two pulleys (blue) you are using on the zed-cord? You would lose the weight of those two pulley's that have a single purpose. Revolvers replace the two biners that secure those pulleys and also can serve as full strength biners too.

Also, do you plan to carry three acenders? You should need two to jug the rope, and one for your 2:1 haul system. I would substitue a prusik for that blue handle. Seeing that it gets adjusted for the height of the anchor and should remain fixed to that single point for the duration of the haul. Prusiks don't weigh anything compared to that handle... plus they pack down to almost nothing.


FLAG
By randy88fj62
Apr 5, 2013
Thunderbolt Peak in the Palisades

DMM Revolvers are not efficient pulleys. They are meant to be used for rope drag.


FLAG
By S Denny
From Carbondale, CO
Apr 5, 2013

randy88fj62 wrote:
DMM Revolvers are not efficient pulleys. They are meant to be used for rope drag.


this.

and the ascender issue. either use the ones you jug with (if you are bringing 4 between the two of you) or just bring 3 total and dedicate one to the haul system.


FLAG
By csproul
From Rancho Cordova, CA
Apr 5, 2013
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the background

Craig Childre wrote:
Have you considered using a couple of DMM Revolvers in place of the two pulleys (blue) you are using on the zed-cord? You would lose the weight of those two pulley's that have a single purpose. Revolvers replace the two biners that secure those pulleys and also can serve as full strength biners too. Also, do you plan to carry three acenders? You should need two to jug the rope, and one for your 2:1 haul system. I would substitue a prusik for that blue handle. Seeing that it gets adjusted for the height of the anchor and should remain fixed to that single point for the duration of the haul. Prusiks don't weigh anything compared to that handle... plus they pack down to almost nothing.

Sounds a little like big wall theory to me.


FLAG
By S Denny
From Carbondale, CO
Apr 5, 2013

csproul wrote:
Sounds a little like big wall theory to me.


classic armchair MP advice


FLAG
By Keenan Waeschle
From Bozeman, MT
Apr 5, 2013
on top of the RNWF <br />June 2012

Craig Childre wrote:
I would substitue a prusik for that blue handle. Seeing that it gets adjusted for the height of the anchor and should remain fixed to that single point for the duration of the haul. Prusiks don't weigh anything compared to that handle... plus they pack down to almost nothing.


What about using a clove hitch?


FLAG
By NorCalNomad
From San Francisco
Apr 5, 2013

Only a matter of time before this thread went down...


FLAG
By "Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok
From Oakville, Ontario
Apr 5, 2013
Left to right - me, Sam Adams, Thomas Huber, Alex Huber

Now, now ...

I read moof's post, and I actually quoted it and then wrote "Bollocks", at least until I read the rest of it, which is pretty good. It's hard to believe that a pulley would have such a low-efficiency, but maybe.

Here's what I can tell you, tried and tested, and is KNOTT Big Wall Theory*:

- the physical orientation of the 2:1 rig is FAR more important than the efficiency of the pulleys. In other words, exactly how everything fits together. For instance, there are four possible ways that the zed-cord can be oriented, and only one is correct. You have to practise, as Mark suggests, to find out which is right. Then you have to fine tune this thing to an RCH, make sure all the lengths are correct, where you attach the zed cord to you, and so on. Once you "get it", it's pretty easy. But you DO have to pay your dues to figure it out

- put your good pulley on top, as moof suggests. If I wasn't on my second glass of wine [Eastern Daylight Savings Time] I would post up a pair of photos I have. I put a pulley on top, and a carabiner on the bottom, and was able to still haul. But if you put the crab on top and the pulley on the bottom, you can't even move it.

- you need real pulleys, not DMM Revolvers. The Revolver is, however, a superb device to have in your arsenal, as it has a number of superb uses on the big wall, none of which I am prepared to share at this stage in the bottle.


FLAG
By Moof
From Portland, OR
Apr 5, 2013

Petzl Fixe pulley is listed at 71% efficiency.


FLAG
By "Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok
From Oakville, Ontario
Apr 7, 2013
Left to right - me, Sam Adams, Thomas Huber, Alex Huber

Well, I'll be buggered. I did knott know that the Fixe Pulley had such a crappy efficiency. Thanks for the tip, eh?

From another great post here on Mountain Project:



I've already got me one of those sweet #9 pulleys which you see in the photo above. It has great bearings, and being my "better" pulley I therefore use it on the top of my 2:1 rig. I'm very happy with it, and here's the proof:





So now I'm going to buy me one of these Petzl Mini Prusik Minding Pulleys with 91% efficiency. That's a huge improvement in efficiency:



I'll replace my ancient 71% Fixe Pulley which I use on my inverted ascender on the bottom of my 2:1, and which I've been using since 1997:



And the new Mini Prusik Minding Pulley is actually 10g lighter in weight than Fixe.

So how much will this improve my hauling? It's going to hurt my wallet to the tune of about fifty bucks.


FLAG
By Craig Childre
From Lubbock, Texas
Apr 8, 2013
Potrero Mexico, Sport Climbing Mecca.

Good points on the Revolvers.

My other submission to potentially lighten your system. Consider the Petzl ULTRALEGERE. I'm betting it's too light duty or inefficient for this application. Cost a mere $5, weighing in at 10g, and might be useful to someone looking for the absolute lightest configuration. At the very least, a semi-effective backup for the primary system. I suspect it's downfall will be the difficulty keeping the rope tracking through the pulley during operation.


FLAG
By randy88fj62
Apr 8, 2013
Thunderbolt Peak in the Palisades

Craig Childre wrote:
Good points on the Revolvers. My other submission to potentially lighten your system. Consider the Petzl ULTRALEGERE. I'm betting it's too light duty or inefficient for this application. Cost a mere $5, weighing in at 10g, and might be useful to someone looking for the absolute lightest configuration. At the very least, a semi-effective backup for the primary system. I suspect it's downfall will be the difficulty keeping the rope tracking through the pulley during operation.


Craig,
The Petzl ULTRALEGERE has a working load of 1 kN which equates to roughly 220 lbs. Petzl doesn't list the efficiency of this pulley so I'm assuming it's below the 70% range of most basic ball bearing systems like the mini traxion. Maybe the Petzl Oscillate would be a good choice for the poor mans 2:1 but even then they are only around 70% efficiency too.


FLAG
By S Denny
From Carbondale, CO
Apr 8, 2013

Craig Childre wrote:
might be useful to someone looking for the absolute lightest configuration


Probably not a big concern to people using a 2:1 to haul hundreds of pounds of gear. save the 'light is right' mantra for the mountains.


FLAG
By Mark Hudon
Apr 9, 2013
On the North America Wall in 1977.

By the same logic that Moof is correctly applying, "1 to 1" hauling is not quite that either. .70 to 1 would be more accurate given the pulley.


FLAG
By Stefano Prezioso
From Detroit, MI
Apr 12, 2013
Top of Mt. Washburn in Yellowstone National Park

Light, efficient 2:1 Hauling Ratchet
Light, efficient 2:1 Hauling Ratchet


Here's my version. I'm still trying to find a reasonable place to actually practice, since there is no crags in the Metro Detroit area. I've got the Petzl Partner Pulleys (91% efficiency) for the Lifting Assembly, and the Micro-Traxion for the Holding Ratchet. I basket hitched my top pulley in the Lifting Assembly with a shorter Dyneema sling, and was actually able to hunt down a Frost Power Draw. (Unneeded, but what the heck.)

What I like is that the 2:1 can be added on to a 1:1 system whenever it's needed. So you can haul 1:1 when you want, and if the haul really sucks and you want the added leverage, or something is a bit stuck, it can be put on there without having to unweight anything or any other messy shenanigans.

Also, my entire system, including Holding Ratchet, not including the ascender, is 1.5 pounds. Definitely not bad.


FLAG
By NorCalNomad
From San Francisco
Apr 12, 2013

I'm no engineer so would anyone like to explain why the pulleys got more efficient with more weight?


FLAG
By Jim Titt
From Germany
Apr 12, 2013

NorCalNomad wrote:
I'm no engineer so would anyone like to explain why the pulleys got more efficient with more weight?


There are a couple of reasons. First, despite what one is taught in school the coefficient of friction for most material combinations isnīt a constant but changes under pressure. For pulleys using impregnated bronze bushes this is particularly so since they release their lubrication under pressure but even for ball bearings this effect is measurable.
More important is that the force required to bend the rope over the sheave is more or less a constant so is a proportionally larger part of the hauling force with smaller loads and so the pulley efficiency appears to get worse. Thinner, more flexible ropes are naturally more efficient as a system than thick stiff ones.


FLAG
By Moof
From Portland, OR
Apr 12, 2013

Mark Hudon wrote:
By the same logic that Moof is correctly applying, "1 to 1" hauling is not quite that either. .70 to 1 would be more accurate given the pulley.


Yep. If you go digging for old threads, people got all wadded up about using a 2", or 3", or 4" pulley for hauling (only a few percent difference in efficiency), but then in this thread nobody bats an eye suggesting using DMM revolver, or a tiny little accessory pulley in a 2:1.

A couple trips ago my buddy Stu brought a rig with little nylon sheave pulleys. One of those melted on the first haul. Ever since that I've had a more wary eye as to what corners get cut on these rigs.

Get some good pulley's, or ball bearing ones like Pete pointed out at the least. If you are worried about weight, either tag the mess up at the top of the pitch, or climb faster and don't bring so much crap. A 2:1 is for when you have already thrown in the towel and decided to go wall camping style instead of going in either slow suffer mode or fast & light mode.


FLAG
By Luke Stefurak
From Mountain View, CA
May 5, 2013
Below "Inspect Her Gadget" at HP40 after sending it the previous day.

Here is a pretty similar setup.

When you use a biner to span the top pulley, are you trying to accomplish the same thing as adding a frost draw?

I assume that you just want to have the micro-traxion (or whatever holding device) lower.

Hauling Setup.
Hauling Setup.


The Petzl Partner Pulleys are pretty snazzy. Nice and light and they look to have the same pulley assembly as the Micro-Trax.

I happen to have a croll, which should work just as well as a basic for the ratchet.

Thoughts?

-Luke


FLAG
By randy88fj62
May 6, 2013
Thunderbolt Peak in the Palisades

I prefer oval lockers on my hauling setup but your setup looks good. I would also tie the water knot as a through knot and not an overhand. The current configuration of the water knot on the purple webbing doesn't look good to me as it makes the knot want to roll. Can't find any literature saying it's incorrect but it doesn't look right to me. Maybe someone else can chime in with more knowledge.

I use a barrel knot on my zed cord to eliminate bulk but your knot works just fine.


FLAG
By Mark Hudon
May 7, 2013
On the North America Wall in 1977.

Luke, yes, the bigger biner spanning the pulley eliminates the Frost draw and keeps all the force of the pull directly in line. Any side to side movement would be robbing you of efficiency.
Don't forget that 2:1 advantage also magnifies your inefficiencies by 2.


FLAG
By claramie
From Boulder, CO
May 8, 2013
Should I be trying this hard on a warmup? <br /> <br />photo by Rob Kepley

Mark or Pete,

Any reason that a tibloc would be a bad idea instead of the basic?

cheers,
Clayton


FLAG
By Mark Hudon
May 8, 2013
On the North America Wall in 1977.

I used a Tribloc as the rope grab on my Iron Hawk solo last year and it totally chewed my haul line.
On the first fixed pitch, I heard something sort of groan and things seemed to have slipped. I looked and looked, backed up some stuff and continued on. A few other times I heard this same groan and couldn't figure it. On almost the last pitch I hauled, I was looking at the Tribloc as it slipped and as it groaned it totally fuzzed out a six inch section of the haul line. I realized what the groaning was and why my haul line has all these fuzzed out sections.

I thought I was paying close attention to it and also using a thick enough biner to prevent it from slipping but, apparently not.

Have one around for an emergency but be very careful and make sure it's completely engaged before using it.


FLAG
By claramie
From Boulder, CO
May 9, 2013
Should I be trying this hard on a warmup? <br /> <br />photo by Rob Kepley

Yikes! I figured that it wouldn't work, either because of abrasion or since it's so small it's harder to grab onto. Thanks for the heads up.

Clayton


FLAG
By "Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok
From Oakville, Ontario
May 10, 2013
Left to right - me, Sam Adams, Thomas Huber, Alex Huber

You guys need to check out a similar post over on McTopo, where you will find tons of great photos, beta and drawings on how to properly construct your 2:1 Chongo hauling ratchet:

www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2132804&tn=0&>>>

Cheers, eh?


FLAG


Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
Page 3 of 3.  <<First   <Prev   1  2  3