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2:1 Haul Setup - Rate my rigging
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By Alpinisto
From Connecticut
Jun 22, 2012
tex wrote:
nice 40s!!!!


^^^True dat.


"Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok wrote:
Voice of Spanish Inquisition: "Three things! There are THREE things!"


"Amongst our weaponry are such elements as: fear, surprise and 40-inch bosoms..."

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By Mark Hudon
Jun 30, 2012
On the North America Wall in 1977.
Randy,

Your quick-links are really not needed. Sure, they are plenty strong and they are safe since you can not accidentally unclip them but a locking biner will do the same thing and is far, far lighter.

You don't need the rigging plate and I would replace it and add a large biner that spans your red pulley. Either that or hang the Mini-Trax on a short sling from the same biner as the upper pulley so it hangs directly below it. With your present configuration, you'll be amazed and bummed at how the rig see-saws back and forth and causes you to loose a few inches with every pull and relax.

Get good pulleys and put the best one on top.

As far as putting the best pulley on top, imagine this:

You know that the upper pulley does not in any way contribute to the 2:1 mechanical advantage don't you? The upper pulley is merely changing the direction of the pull. If the lower pulley were 100% efficient and the upper pulley were only 95% efficient, your system would be only $95% efficient. If the upper one was 25% efficient your system would be only 25% efficient.
If the lower pulley was 25% efficient and the upper one was 100% you would still be only 25% efficient. You can see that the upper pulley can not effect the total efficiency of the system and can only detract from it.

I have an SMC 2" ball bearing rescue pulley as my top one and an SMC 1.5" ball bearing Mini as my lower one. Me, at 125 pounds, has easily hauled 300 pounds with my 2:1 system.

One point that a lot of people miss is that when you push down on your lower rope grab, you need to push down HARD so that there is NO slack in the system when you sit back down and weight the system. Your "Zed Cord" should be tight from your belay loop and all through the system. Don't forget that to haul 150 feet, your body has to move 300 feet. Every inch of slack causes you to move twice that distance before applying any force to the system. 2:1 doubles any advantages but it also doubles any errors!

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By Wes Goulding
Feb 16, 2013
I use the 2x1 described by Pete and Mark. Many thanks to you both for all of your time and effort.

Some small things I also do are;

I use an ascender on the haul line after the micro-trax. That way I can pull myself up and pull in the haul line slack at the same time. One less step = efficiency.

I also sometimes weight the Basic with some of the rack. Sometimes I am farther away from the 2x1 set up, like when I am standing on a ledge. This helps it automatically start to reset lower on the haul line. Usually as I am stepping up it will be coming down and I can grab it if I need to.

I also like to attach my other ascender to the basic with a carabiner. That way I have a good handle to grab.

Also pulling down on this line gives you mechanical advantage making the 300K air squats seem like only 150K. :)

Wes

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By Keenan Waeschle
From Bozeman, MT
Feb 16, 2013
on top of the RNWF June 2012
comments on the lower ascender. Would a gibbs ascender fit into the same category as a ropeman? I've been using a gibbs on my 2:1 (which I think I've hauled all of 3 pitches total with) and it seemed to work pretty well. Should I reconfigure it to work with a petzl basic/standard petzl ascender? My chief complaint with the gibbs is that slamming it down kinda hurts my hand, but I figured I was just a pussy and needed to suck it up. I didn't notice a delay in the grabbing action on the rope.

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By Mark Hudon
Feb 16, 2013
On the North America Wall in 1977.
Wes and Keenan, all of that are good ideas. That's the important part of the 2:1 system, thinking about it, fine tuning it and making it your own. You wouldn't believe all the people who tell me is a "too complicated" system, and "we couldn't get it to work" but when I ask them about it they tell me they barely worked with it before discarding it.

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By csproul
From Davis, CA
Feb 21, 2013
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the backgrou...
Is there any reason a Petzl Croll wouldn't work in place of the Basic in this system?

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By randy88fj62
Feb 21, 2013
Thunderbolt Peak in the Palisades
csproul wrote:
Is there any reason a Petzl Croll wouldn't work in place of the Basic in this system?


Both will work for big wall hauling. The only difference is the croll is shaped and easily positions against your chest for ascending using the frog setup for caving.

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By Travis Spaulding
From Las Vegas, NV.
Feb 21, 2013
The first pitch belay on Chips and Salsa (5.3) Red...
Hudon Hauler
Hudon Hauler


I built mine with lots of help from Mark. Couple changes I have coming up is to replace the ascender with a Basic, and changing out the Pro-Trax for a Mini (The Trax is behind the big pulley.)

The trick for me so far has been getting the zed-cord set at the right length. I have the far end tied into the biner that attaches to my harness, and then a clove hitch to easily adjust the length.

Haven't been able to use it much yet, but what hauling I have done is super easy. Thanks Mark!

  • Extra Style Points* - Attach ladders to the Basic and an ascender on the haul side and do it Chongo style! (Not recommended if you're light with a heavy bag as you don't go anywhere.)

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By "Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok
From Oakville, Ontario
Feb 27, 2013
Left to right - me, Sam Adams, Thomas Huber, Alex ...
Regarding Randy's rig from June 22:

1) The blue pulley looks bigger and hence is probably "better" - you always want the better pulley on top because it does twice the work. See the photos above from my basement

2) You don't need the blue jug on the zed cord. You want to clove hitch the zed-cord to a pair of carabiners attached to the belay loop on your harness. Two carabiners make the clove easier to adjust. The clove allows you to adjust the length of the zed cord to precisely the right length

3) Pro-Trax REQUIRES a crab through the bottom hole! Read the damn instructions! ANY device will work here, because it is knott doing any work. Even an old school Wall Hauler is fine.

4) The upper pulley should knott have a carabiner through it at all. Put the cord right through the top of the pulley. I use a doubled hunk of supertape.

5) Good work losing the rigging plate - the rigging plate is no good, as it rocks.


Travis - that is one BFP you have on the fridge!!


You can use most any inverted ascender - Basic, Croll or [handled] Ascension. They will all work. I have a dedicated Basic which I just leave on the system. I use my Ascension when cleaning, along with either a Croll for Frog cleaning on plumb stuff, or a Grigri as an ascender on steep/diagonalling stuff.

As I think someone mentions above, you can put the handled ascender on the free end of the haul line coming out of the "holding device" which is the Pro-Trax, Mini-Trax, Kong, Wall Hauler, and then you can use it to pull yourself back up with one hand as you haul. The other hand is on the inverted ascender. When you practise this stuff, it will all make sense.

And as I have preached from the beginning, and as Mark affirms above, this is not intuitive nor particularly easy to figure out. You have to practise practise practise! BUT once you figure it out, and understand how to tweak it and fine tune it, it is an amazing system.

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By Chucker
Mar 3, 2013
Hey PTPP what is the best rig to chuck hag bags off el cap? I hear you're the master! Have you made any "how to" videos?

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By kevin deweese
From Oakland, Ca
Mar 5, 2013
Birds and Beards
Chucker wrote:
Hey PTPP what is the best rig to chuck hag bags off el cap? I hear you're the master! Have you made any "how to" videos?


It's almost like apologizing and publically stating the error of his ways, and promising change is worthless if it keeps you from being able to make a pointless jab on a thread where ptpp is doing nothing but trying to help other people understand their systems. douche.

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By ParkerKempf
From atlanta, GA
Mar 5, 2013
sweet belay on El Cap Spire, Salathe Wall El Capit...
Kind of beating a dead horse but this is the system i have used on many a wall (20+?) 4 el cap routes ( 2 solos)

I clove the 5.5 bluewater titan chord (zed chord) to my belay at the most comfortable length. I have had the mini trax fail a couple of times on me (but i've also had ascenders, gri-gri's, cinches, and just about every other "autolocking" system fail at some point)

I use a Quad as my bigwall anchor setup and hang my minitrax setup from the appropriate higher loop and lower my bags onto the sliding master point once they get to me. This keeps the mini trax super close to the bolt/anchor piece.


very compact and light, everything on 1 biner
very compact and light, everything on 1 biner




here it is in action!
here it is in action!

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By Mark Hudon
Mar 8, 2013
On the North America Wall in 1977.
Looks good to me, Parker.

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By Ryan N
From Bellingham, WA
Mar 24, 2013
RJN
Great thread, GREAT info! Getting ready for my first big wall this spring and after practice hauling, I see that being efficient at this, will definetly make or break you. A couple questions I have are-

What length is your Zed Cord? I see people use various materials and diameters, but I don't see a mention of the length.

Seems like most people keep their haul setup together the whole climb. Makes sense. I've searched through the threads here on to see biner preferences, but couldn't find any. Is the shape, or size more important? Obviously weight is a factor to some degree, screw lock or auto lock?

I don't see a mention of anyone using a swivel for haul bag. Is that just not mentioned or just not that important?

Also what length is your docking cord?
And not a hauling question, but what biner do people prefer for their ladders? I've used wire and solid gate both oval and pear shaped. Aside from making sure the biner is oriented on a fashion that allows the fifi to not rest on the gate side, how can you avoid this, and is it a big deal to pull on fifi from the gate?

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By Mark Hudon
Mar 24, 2013
On the North America Wall in 1977.
You could easily use some 5 mil for your Zed cord, probably 10 feet is long enough. On a hanging belay, you won't need that much but on a ledge you might Mine is stuffed away right now so I can't measure it.
Keep it all ready to go in a Medium Fish Beef Bag. I can arrive at a 3 bolts, set up the anchor ready to jug and set up my haul system, ready to haul in about 15 minutes.
I always use a swivel.

My docking cords start off as 15 feet but are doubled with an 8 knot in the middle which is clipped to the haul bags. That leaves me 7 feet to dock the bags with.

Go to my Panoramas site: El Cap Panoramas and check out my Big Wall Tips sheets. I have one about haul bags and 2:1 hauling.

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By Ryan N
From Bellingham, WA
Mar 24, 2013
RJN
Thanks Mark! I've read over you website a few times now. Great job. Between you, PTPP, and Chris Mac I've gotten so much info and can't wait to get on a big wall in Yosemite this spring.

Do you have any recommendations on where in Yosemite I could practice my whole routine(hauling, setting up portaledge, rapping) that I can aid up a few pitches and bivy the night without getting in the way of people trying to summit?

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By Mark Hudon
Mar 24, 2013
On the North America Wall in 1977.
Thanks.

Probably the start of the Dihedral Wall or the NA. Aiding up P1 of Negative Pinnacle would be cool also.

I'm about ready to write up a Tips Sheet of how to assemble a portaledge also. I should have that one ready to go soon.

Cheers,

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By randy88fj62
Mar 25, 2013
Thunderbolt Peak in the Palisades
Ryan,
I prefer a keylock style carabiner for my aid ladders. I currently use petzl spirits. My gf always uses lockers on her ladders so everyone has their own choice.

Regarding lockers on your haul setup:
I prefer petzl ok triact carabiners. They would take a great deal to open unexpectedly and the oval shape keeps them in proper orientation without much chance of cross loading.

My personal thought here is that any lockers other than screw locks are a good idea. If I'm really tired then the auto lockers keep me safe as you cannot forget to lock an auto locker.

That being said, a screw locker is simple and ambidextrous. For my canyoneering (rappelling in waterfalls) I always use screw lockers as auto lockers are hard to deal with when unclipping from a rope while floating in water.

Summary: Use any locker you got. It's a personal preference.

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By Ryan N
From Bellingham, WA
Apr 4, 2013
RJN
Here's the setup-

Setup
Setup


Gear-
Mini Traxion
Camp/Petzl pulley
Petzl Croll
Petzl William ball lockers

Rate my setup please. Red cord is Z cord, Blue is haul line(redirected for clarity)

-seems most people on this thread are attaching their haul setup to bolt via a sling or draw. Why is that necessary? The way I've got it seems to be working great and in line. Also the closer your setup is to anchor, the more you can haul before resetting.

-Do you haul on your master, or on the side bolt. Seems like it would be easier/safer if second was jugging on master alone?

Tips are MUCH appreciated.

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By S Denny
From Prescott, AZ
Apr 4, 2013
sling/draw allows it to spin as it needs

i usually haul from the highest bolt available, and (honestly) sometimes back it up...

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By Ryan N
From Bellingham, WA
Apr 4, 2013
RJN
Ahhhh. The spinning aspect. That makes sense.

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By Keenan Waeschle
From Bozeman, MT
Apr 4, 2013
on top of the RNWF June 2012
yeah, just run a doubled loop of 8 mil cord through the top pulley. it should be ~4 inches long, gives it a smidgen of rotatability.

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By "Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok
From Oakville, Ontario
Apr 5, 2013
Left to right - me, Sam Adams, Thomas Huber, Alex ...
Wow, you guys really "get" how to make this thing nowadays.

Yes, you MUST have a sling or cord or something through the pulley on top of the zed-cord. It allows that extra "degree of freedom" for the system to work. You can credit Chongo with invention, especially the sling.

I use a doubled piece of supertape, because it sits flat against the top of the pulley. The problem with a piece of 8mm perlon or old hunk of climbing rope is that it is circular in cross section, and hits the metal of the pulley tangentially, amplifying the force on sheath of the cord. The flat tape spreads the force more evenly, is quick and easy to tie, and is more reliable and more easily fixed in the field.

Keep and eye on the zed-cord, too - it will become abraded in the working zone. A couple of times while hauling - and much to my fear and amazement - the zed-cord snapped with a rather percussive and explosive sound! Scared the bejeepers out of me.

This is the reason I no longer use the 5.5mm Spectra on the zed cord. Even though it does not stretch, it is quite stiff and it abrades very easily. In other words, it snaps. Plus it's very expensive. I just use an old hunk of 7mm big wall cordelette. Yes, there is a small amount of stretch, but not much in 7mm. 6mm is just a bit too thing, and 8mm is just a bit too thick. Those things will all work, but you really need to take it from me that 7mm is the way to go.

"Tried and tested over millions of foot-pounds of piggage."

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By Mark Hudon
Apr 5, 2013
On the North America Wall in 1977.
Ryan, That rig looks great.

You MIGHT get a little bit of efficiency loss when the weigh comes tight on the Mini track and it pushes the pulley aside and when you apply weight to the Zed cord and that top pulley pushed the Mini track aside. It won't be a whole hell of a lot and you could easily eliminate it by clipping the Mini into your main biner, with a short sling or adding another biner so it hangs a bit lower.

Keenan, that's exactly what I do.

Still though, you're set.

Now get out and PRACTICE with it a bit.

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By Moof
From Portland, OR
Apr 5, 2013
Some of these rigs are not likely to be much better than 1:1 with a good pulley, here's why...

Small non-ball bearing pulleys are about ~70% efficient.

The top pulley is a simple 1:1 re-direct from pulling up, so its efficiency is directly applied to everything. F_1to1=Efficiency * Pull

The bottom pulley is part of a 2:1, where the force lifting force will be F_2to1= F_1to1 + Efficiency * F_1to1

So for 70% efficiency pulleys:

F_2to1=0.7*Pull + 0.7*0.7*Pull = 1.29*Pull

Only a 1.29:1 mechanical advantage and only a 65% overall efficiency (1/3 of your effort ends up wasted in warming up the pulleys)

For 90% efficient pulleys (ball bearing models are around 90-95% or so):

F_2to1=0.9*Pull + 0.9*0.9*Pull = 1.71*Pull

Overall this 85% efficient, and you can either lift 1/3 more weight for the same effort using good pulleys, or lift the same weight with 25% less effort depending on how you look at it.

Moreover, if you are worried about weight, the top pulley efficiency is twice as important, so put your good pulley up high in the 1:1 re-direct location.

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