Ice climbing etiquette

Looking to get some opinions on something that happened today while climbing. So myself,gf,and another friend head out to Lincoln Falls. It's our one friends very first time ice climbing so I decide it will be better to lead up a pitch and set a top rope to better teach the new climber.

One group is ahead of us and I let them know our plan to just climb the first pitch and set up a rope. Another group is behind us, a guy and girl with what I assume is the girls first time climbing. I also let them know our plan as to not clog up the climb with a top rope and ask them if they would like to go first. They say no.

So after the group ahead finishes the first pitch I start out, get to the anchor and set up a top rope.

After being lowered, my gf ties in and starts off. Well the gentleman from the group behind decided to start off as well, crosses under my rope, gets kind of tangled in my rope and is cicking his crampons in way to close for comfort around my rope. After he is clear I just decide to lower my girlfriend down. The guy sets one screw about 40 feet up while his friend is not attached to anything. Sooooo if he falls he's sliding down and taking her with him.

So my question is what is proper ettiquite here? I'm all for anyone leading going first, but this seemed kind of inconsiderate and pretty dangerous. The climb is pretty wide and he had plenty of other lines to choose from. I made it clear how I felt but the guy and his partner didn't have much to say.

I appreciate your concern and in some ways sympathize, but you are setting yourself up for a bad situation by setting a top rope at the bottom of the gully at Lincoln falls. Too much through traffic on what is what one of the few accessible moderate multiple pitch ice routes in the area for setting a top rope on the first pitch to end any way other than badly. There are lots of better spots for that kind of thing, including at Lincoln falls.

Yeah I agree. I wasn't crazy about the idea of top roping there. But traffic didn't seem as terrible that day and pretty much everyone there was already set up on other climbs other than the group ahead of us. Definitely see your point though.

Yabut, "nothing else was available" is never a good excuse for doing anything that is otherwise a bad idea - including this. A better choice would have been to bring the newbie and your girlfried up, one on each rope, and your GF could provide instruction. Then do P2 the same way and maybe something else would open up by the time you were done. Not ideal, but you wouldn't be tying up P1 with a toprope (ALWAYS bad etiquette at Lincoln). What about those flows to the left of the gully, are they in this year? They don't see much traffic.

Other acceptable solutions are: a) Spend time explaining technique to the newb and hope something opens up b) ask one of the other groups, WHO GOT UP EARLIER AND WERE THERE BEFORE YOU, if you can share their rope c) bail and get up earlier next time.

Definite props to you guys for attempting good communication though. I see no major issue with the second leader starting up at the same time as your GF as long as he paces her and isn't dropping bombs on her, but he should have avoided your ropes altogether. Nonetheless, how he chooses to protect his climbing is entirely up to him. Possible that the screw was just to keep his rope out of the way of yours and he was treating like a solo.

Lastly, a word of advice from my experience, starting an etiquette thread on any ice climbing forum anywhere is a no-win proposition. At the LEAST, your competence, parentage, manliness, looks and intelligence will be pitilessly assailed. Nothing else will result.

I'm definitely not saying I was totally in the right and the other party was totally in the wrong. I do think crossing over someones rope, getting tangled up, dropping ice onto the party below is wrong and dangerous. I definitely made a bad call on setting up on that climb. I was there early enough though and when it appeared that no one else was going to be climbing that route I said what the hell. And as far as soloing a route more power to you. But then I say trail the rope for the second or atleast put in a piece to anchor the belayer who a few minutes earlier was getting a lesson on ice climbing and then the leader just taking off.

First of all, the guy was kicking ice to my feet and breaking it off to demonstrate to his girl how to walk as I was lead belying. They crossed under the rope and were practicing as Arik was lead climbing above them. I haven't been climbing for long, but I can tell this guy was asshole. If he really wanted to climb the pitches without being a tool he would've taken the request of Arik and gone in front of us. Clearly he chose incorrectly. Second, I was in mid climb when he completely cut me off on the wall, kicked ice down on to me without saying ice numerous times! Even when he was out of sight ice was falling and he yelled nothing. Finally, climbing in between our rope is never ok! Even if you think we should not have put up a top rope it doesn't matter. It was unsafe and he put my safety at risk by being a tool. This guy was dick!

In addition, the asshole who was name Eric was putting his belayer at risk. She had no idea what she was doing and if he had fallen she would've been done. I'm sure she still doesn't know that she should've been hooked into something!

Why didn't they just go first when asked?

A great question for the gods I suppose Luke.

I am trying to tone it down lately but I'll go ahead and answer. You never top rope the first pitch of a multi pitch route. Definitely no way if it's busy.

That said you were there before that third party. If there's no where else to TR you lead, she follows and you rap to the ground. That would've kept you safe.

We are aware of these rules however the third party didn't want to go ahead of us therefore giving us the right away. Sorry Bill the ball was in his court and he made his choice. He should have waited or said hey can I jump in we are leading. We would've let him. But that was not the case. He made an unsafe choice.

Jennifer Santangelo wrote:We are aware of these rules however the third party didn't want to go ahead of us therefore giving us the right away. Sorry Bill the ball was in his court and he made his choice. He should have waited or said hey can I jump in we are leading. We would've let him. But that was not the case. He made an unsafe choice.

Your man asked what's the etiquette I replied. I'm sorry all that happened. It must give you a bad first impression. If you didn't break one of the cardinal rules you wouldn't be in that situation. What's the old saying.. Two wrongs don't make a right.

My first ice class was taught by a guide who set up two TRs on the first pitch of the Scottish gully at Lincoln. It was a weekday however, and nobody showed up.

I've actually been at Lincoln plenty of times (especially in late season) when nobody was there, am I obligated to follow etiquette just in case someone shows up?

With respect to the OP is it still a bad choice and bad etiquette if that third party never shows up?

Jennifer Santangelo wrote: This guy was dick!

Yes!!!

You tell 'im!!!!

Jennifer Santangelo wrote:In addition, the asshole who was name Eric was putting his belayer at risk. She had no idea what she was doing and if he had fallen she would've been done. I'm sure she still doesn't know that she should've been hooked into something!

Yes the guy was a tool!

Your bf put your party at risk setting up a TR beneath a party on a multi pitch. Then invited a second party to go ahead and chance even more ice coming down.

The party ahead of us was well away from the section we were climbing and ice fall wasnt an issue. If the party behind us took me up on the offer of going ahead we would have been sitting for awhile before getting on and that would have been fine. Something I didn't mention was the group that past us was top roping the second pitch. Again, yes I made a bad call. But when there was so few people out and it seemed clear no one else had any intention of climbing that route I set up on it, after it was safe to do so. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one and they all stink.

IMHO the guy who decided not to take you up on your offer then started up showed poor form. When passing on ice there are typically multiple options. One of which is not to put others in harms way. So either you climb well to the side (often taking the harder line) or if that is not possible you cool yer jets or work with the first group so not to cause them issues.

As for the top roping. Here again the common courtesy is to let those wishing to lead through do so. But at the same time ice is a limited resource so you do what you can to share.

Allen Sanderson wrote:IMHO the guy who decided not to take you up on your offer then started up showed poor form. When passing on ice there are typically multiple options. One of which is not to put others in harms way. So either you climb well to the side (often taking the harder line) or if that is not possible you cool yer jets or work with the first group so not to cause them issues. As for the top roping. Here again the common courtesy is to let those wishing to lead through do so. But at the same time ice is a limited resource so you do what you can to share.

This is exactly what I'm trying to say. I know that I did not have the right of way but that is still no excuse for someone to cross my rope and get all tangled up. If the guy would have asked if he could climb on through then that's totally fine. I'd park my ass until it was safe again to climb. But to just start up climbing like he did was honestly dangerous and stupid.

the best thing to do in this situation would be, of course, to post online about your epic day toproping at Lincoln

ps -- I lost an atc guide there about 8-10 years ago...if found, please return...thx

Buff Johnson wrote:the best thing to do in this situation would be, of course, to post online about your epic day toproping at Lincoln ps -- I lost an atc guide there about 8-10 years ago...if found, please return...thx

Well played sir; well played.

Arik wrote:I'm definitely not saying I was totally in the right and the other party was totally in the wrong. I do think crossing over someones rope, getting tangled up, dropping ice onto the party below is wrong and dangerous. I definitely made a bad call on setting up on that climb. I was there early enough though and when it appeared that no one else was going to be climbing that route I said what the hell. And as far as soloing a route more power to you. But then I say trail the rope for the second or atleast put in a piece to anchor the belayer who a few minutes earlier was getting a lesson on ice climbing and then the leader just taking off.

Oh, and thanks to your and your girlfried, after asking for advice, for carefully considering my several very good suggestions and not getting super defensive.

Buuuut, I guess what you were really looking for was... "YEAH MAN THAT GUY WAS AN ASSHOLE! You guys totally rock and are kickass ice climbers." There; panties all nice and un-bunched now?

Back to lurking mode (and I wonder why I'm about half-way to giving up the sport altogether).