Draws removed from project- Moffat Tunnel

David Barbour wrote: Regardless, you should attempt to return them to the owner. Keeping them or throwing them away is at worst, theft, and at least, vindictive.

I agree, and a very good reason to not even get into this situation by not giving anyone a chance to swipe them.

I probably will never come across or need project quickdraws, so you hard men can do what you will, but be aware of the possible consequences from people not as nice as you..

BigFeet wrote: Severe disadvantage - is this not what they are trying to do, but get up a climb that is hard for them? How do others do this? Does everyone hang draws until they top out? Are you not trying to work out the problem cleanly? Once you do accomplish the climb with hung draws are you going to climb it again in the same manner, or are you going to up your game? Is everyone expected to hang and leave draws on everything hard to climb?

The community consensus is that hanging the draws is not required for a send. Yeah a person is welcome to hang/remove draws every time, but they're disadvantaging themselves.

If the draws aren't hung and a climb is outside your onsight ability, usually the first attempt is spent working the climb in sections, and the second and onward are real attempts, with the draws hung.

BigFeet wrote:You still have to get the rope to the carabiner and clip it. You are doing this one handed just as you would clipping the draw to the bolt.

It takes twice as long to hang a draw plus the rope. When you're on an overhanging climb, a second can make the difference between pumping out and sending. Tacking on 20-30 sec to hang the draws is enormous. If the hold is bad enough, it might be impossible for you to make the clip without the draw already in. Sometimes bolts are placed where a shorter person can't even reach the clip without a long draw.

Everyone is aware that their project draws might be stolen, so the "you asked for it" comments are unnecessary victim blaming.

David Barbour wrote: Regardless, you should attempt to return them to the owner. Keeping them or throwing them away is at worst, theft, and at least, vindictive.

Unless you view the draws a litter. If one were to take this view, you would not give the draws back because you have to again clean up after them. It would be actually a community service to reduce the crap in the crap in the mountains.

David Barbour wrote: Everyone is aware that their project draws might be stolen, so the "you asked for it" comments are unnecessary victim blaming.

If you know your shit might going to be taken and you leave it anyway; how are you a victim?
It seems silly to ignore the people that say they disagree with project draws then be surprised when they are taken.
Like being a victim of gravity.

Again, I don't think that taking down project draws are ok but i am sick of the arrogance that demands that they are appropriate when consensuses does not seem to show it.

Tim Lutz wrote: As soon as you post up a link to a thread title such as: 'the project draws blew my onsight attempt', you have a point. Reality is though, whether they admit it or not, people are psyched to have project draws on a route when onsighting.

onsighting never includes pre hung draws, flash or pinkpoint at most

matt c. wrote: If you know your shit might going to be taken and you leave it anyway; how are you a victim? It seems silly to ignore the people that say they disagree with project draws then be surprised when they are taken. Like being a victim of gravity. Again, I don't think that taking down project draws are ok but i am sick of the arrogance that demands that they are appropriate when consensuses does not seem to show it.

I know that someone might break into my house and still my stuff any day of the week, but that doesn't mean that I'm not a victim if it happens. I'm just glad that the climbing community that I know isn't what is being represented on this thread.

If someone removes my color coded bolts I drill on double cross, may I claim to be a victim too?

matt c. wrote:If someone removes my color coded bolts I drill on double cross, may I claim to be a victim too?

obviously yes.

matt c. wrote:If someone removes my color coded bolts I drill on double cross, may I claim to be a victim too?

You wont need to "claim" being a victim for very long since those chopped hangers may get inserted in another orifice.

matt c. wrote: Unless you view the draws a litter. If one were to take this view, you would not give the draws back because you have to again clean up after them. It would be actually a community service to reduce the crap in the crap in the mountains.

It's not litter though. It was left there for a purpose, and the thieves know it.

matt c. wrote:If someone removes my color coded bolts I drill on double cross, may I claim to be a victim too?

If you leave your car on the side of the road for a week, does that mean I can steal it?

If draws go missing in the forrest and no one is around to see it, do people still complain on Mountain Project?

WinstonVoigt wrote:If draws go missing in the forrest and no one is around to see it, do people still complain on Mountain Project?

where else does one complain? I'm usually having too much fun while actually climbing to worry about shit. In real life when someone tells me their draws were stolen I'm like, damn that suks, then I keep climbing and go home and eat dinner.

Yes, they complain.

David Barbour wrote: It's not litter though. It was left there for a purpose, and the thieves know it. If you leave your car on the side of the road for a week, does that mean I can steal it?

Look, I understand you feel that this is black and white but some people don't feel this way. Some people think it's really irresponsible and inappropriate to keep your stuff hanging around; it offends them.

By leaving your draws up, you are saying: I don't care if are offended, the purpose for leaving them is more important than your opinion.

If I made a habit of leaving my draws around I would try to curb the conversation into convincing others why you feel it helpful to have project draws. Maybe discuss the low impact they have compared to other aspect of climbing. I think I would avoid ostracizing people that disagree with me with name-calling and demanding things.

Because work is slow today:

law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/36…

"(a) The following are prohibited:
(1) Abandoning property.
(2) Leaving property unattended for longer than 24 hours, except in locations where longer time periods have been designated or in accordance with conditions established by the superintendent."

nps.gov/jotr/planyourvisit/…

"A fixed anchor is defined as any piece of climbing equipment that is left in place to facilitate a safe ascent or rappel. Examples include, but are not limited to, bolts, pitons, and slings."

law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/36…

"(a) The following are prohibited:
(1) Obtaining or exercising unlawful possession over the property of another with the purpose to deprive the owner of the property."

So quickdraws are not considered abandoned by NPS and taking them is prohibited.

And even if they were considered abandoned:

"(a) The following are prohibited:
...
(3) Failing to turn in found property to the superintendent as soon as practicable."

So whoever took OPs draws is a thief, by law.

matt c. wrote: Look, I understand you feel that this is black and white but some people don't feel this way. Some people think it's really irresponsible and inappropriate to keep your stuff hanging around; it offends them.

That's fine. Take it up with the landowner. Don't steal.

matt c. wrote:
If someone removes my color coded bolts I drill on double cross, may I claim to be a victim too?


obviously yes.

kennoyce wrote: obviously yes.

Obviously no. The victim would be the climbing community for having to clean up my selfish actions.

I understand that drilling holes is not even in the same ball park as fixing draw, so maybe is not a great parallel.

This escalated quickly.

I don't agree with stealing gear but I also don't agree with leaving gear. Stealing someones gear seems like bad climbing karma just as leaving gear seems like laziness.

Alyx wrote:This escalated quickly. I don't agree with stealing gear but I also don't agree with leaving gear. Stealing someones gear seems like bad climbing karma just as leaving gear seems like laziness.

Sounds like a case of Schrodinger's quickdraw.

kennoyce wrote:I know that someone might break into my house and still my stuff...

You're from Utah, aren't you?

David Barbour wrote: When "as much as you like" is only one or two attempts, having to hang the draws every time is too much of an energy drain.

That is a specious straw man argument. If yer that weak yer probably going to fall off anyway regardless of the grade.

David Barbour wrote:"(a) The following are prohibited: (1) Abandoning property. (2) Leaving property unattended for longer than 24 hours, except in locations where longer time periods have been designated or in accordance with conditions established by the superintendent." nps.gov/jotr/planyourvisit/… "A fixed anchor is defined as any piece of climbing equipment that is left in place to facilitate a safe ascent or rappel. Examples include, but are not limited to, bolts, pitons, and slings." law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/36… "(a) The following are prohibited: (1) Obtaining or exercising unlawful possession over the property of another with the purpose to deprive the owner of the property." So quickdraws are not considered abandoned by NPS and taking them is prohibited.

Work isn't particularly slow today, but man is my mind fixated on the holiday, so I'll respond. I disagree with your conclusions. In fact, I'd argue (and I think a judge would agree) that this is not theft.

First, I don't know if one could only consider this abandoned property. That is one way of viewing the issue, but perhaps not the only under the relevant statutes. Nevertheless, this would appear to be abandoned property since the OP has neither shown that he left them in an area "where longer periods have been designated (than 24 hrs.) or that he met "conditions established by the superintdent".

Second, I'm not sure that leaving otherwise removable draws in place makes them a "fixed anchor". It is not left to facilitate a rappel. Also, it is not required for a "safe ascent". Rather, they are left to make an ascent easier, not safer. If there was leglislative commentary to the statute, I'm pretty confident that it would distinguish between truly fixed anchor, such as bolts and rap chains and slings vs. carabiners or other easily removed gear.

Nice try, but not persuasive.

In short, I dislike hanging draws. They're an eyesore and often unnecessary, especially under the conditions that the OP described. However, I do not approve of taking stuff that one knows does not belong to them.