Draws removed from project- Moffat Tunnel

"This being said, I cannot understand the reason for leaving them on a route for any period of time that I would not be there

...

Yes, I'll have to assume some routes are really hard and it is much easier to leave gear up for an easy clip, but I believe you are cheating yourself. It is supposed to be hard for you, so keep working on it. It may not be too hard for others, though, so be respectful of the next person's experience"

I cannot understand why people who climb 5.11 think they know better than professional climbers when it comes to project draws.

For difficult routes, you might only have one or two good attempts in a day. Hanging the draws adds a substantial level of difficulty when your clipping hold might be a greasy sloper or half pad crimp.

tom303 wrote:Please return the draws that were removed from the left side mixed line at Moffat. These draws were not booty, I returned to re-work the moves this weekend. What gives you the impression that these were booty draws? Also, I hope that you actually put in the work to lead up to my draws, but get the feeling you rapped down. I have no interest in delivering you beer for your services. Just go put my draws back. Cheers

Hey Tom,

I hope you get your draws back. I should add however, my stance on project draws is dependent on the ethics of the area, but why leave draws on a route that has easy top access with a quick 1 minute hike to the top?

I can understand leaving a draw on the last bolt ( I placed a quick-link there two years ago so we could lower off sans ice..it should probably get a legitimate anchor for the other 11 months that there is no ice curtain), but it might make sense to rig a long anchor from the trees at the top for projecting....

I assume you know, but may not if you are working the route ground-up..there is no bolted anchor (at least not as of 3/2015) for this route, and no bolts on or above the runout slab. Be prepared for some serious run-out beyond that last visible bolt if you are going for it.

David Barbour wrote: For difficult routes, you might only have one or two good attempts in a day. Hanging the draws adds a substantial level of difficulty when your clipping hold might be a greasy sloper or half pad crimp.

I think there are multiple quotes in your post, but I'll just answer to this one.

Does this change what was said in my earlier post? Clip and leave them the first time to climb and then climb as much as you like, but then remove them when you leave. Come back and do the same thing again the next visit.

Someone's project is not always the next person's project.

has no one heard of quick-links and a wrench? it seems to keep things pretty hard to take. it all depends on your area. when building new trails for mnt bikes, you bet the tools live out there. when developing new routes everything lives out there. my drill, bolts, hangers, fixed gear, fixed ropes all of it. this is different than fixed draws to be sure. mainly that these areas have no traffic yet. you as a user in a trafficked area have a responsibility to get your shit back or make it harder to steal. if you quick link the bolt end then they are harder to steal. If you use steel karabiners with a captive pin they are harder to steal. it is less convenient but that's the exchange at hand. Convenience for security. sucks but its true.

BigFeet wrote: I think there are multiple quotes in your post, but I'll just answer to this one. Does this change what was said in my earlier post? Clip and leave them the first time to climb and then climb as much as you like, but then remove them when you leave. Come back and do the same thing again the next visit. Someone's project is not always the next person's project.

When "as much as you like" is only one or two attempts, having to hang the draws every time is too much of an energy drain.

Benjamin Chapman wrote:Mark Paulson...it would appear from your profile that you don't climb anywhere near the level where "permadraws are appropriate,"either, therefore your commits regarding the validity of elite climbers utilizing permadraws are more opinion then fact as well.

I said I believe project draws should be reserved for 5.13 and up, and I've redpointed 5.13. I don't understand how that's "not anywhere near the level...". Of course, that doesn't validate my opinion, but at least I've had first hand experience with the terrain.

Also, project draws and permadraws are different things, each with their own issues to consider. My main point is _project_ draws should only be used judiciously, with respect to the route, the difficulty, and the area. Leaving draws on a 5.10 seems like poor form to me. Permadraws are a whole different discussion.

Mark I don't understand your logic. So if my project routes are 5.12 then I'm not worthy of project draws but if it's 5.13 then I'm in the clear? Route difficulty is relative to the climber. Regardless of their ability if they are willing to push themselves then that's all that matters. In the end however if you bring it to the crag then you should leave with it. Especially if you can come back and rap into the route and hang your draws.

Rob Warden, Space Lizaed wrote: it is less convenient but that's the exchange at hand. Convenience for security. sucks but its true.

I think we are on the same page here. Maybe the mountain bike analogy was not the best, but I would not believe you would leave your bike there, would you? Same principle.

The quicklink solution would work better than just a regular carabiner, but then again, you still have stuff sitting out in the open waiting for a person with the determination to get them. This brings us back to the gambling game of will my stuff be there when I get back.

Jon W wrote: In this case, it was probably some some thief who does not care about ethics or morals...obviously....

This is the reason for my thinking you should take your stuff with you. Some thief - they are out there.

David Barbour wrote: When "as much as you like" is only one or two attempts, having to hang the draws every time is too much of an energy drain.

Have the first climber hang the draws then everyone can climb on those hung draws. Retrieve them at the end of the day. Only the first climber hangs them. If you can only get one or two attempts in before you are done that just means you need to come back and try again another day. This is your puzzle. This is something you are working for. This is what makes for a lasting adventure or good times. This is why we work at this stuff, correct?

Tim Lutz wrote: As soon as you post up a link to a thread title such as: 'the project draws blew my onsight attempt', you have a point. Reality is though, whether they admit it or not, people are psyched to have project draws on a route when onsighting.

I can understand this.

What if someone wants to work the route all on their own? Does having quickdraws already on the route give or take away from that person's experience? Some people may be psyched, but some may want to do it all on their own.

Two issues with "project draws" or any other similarly left gear.

The first is that unless you know no one else can, or will, be climbing the route you should remove your hardware. Why? Two reasons 1) Many people wont want to clip random gear found hanging on a route, so they have to either remove said gear to place their own or not climb the route; 2) If leaving draws is your way of "closing off" the route until you are done you are being inconsiderate of others (unless you have permission from the property owner to do so, you are keeping other members of the public from utilizing a public resource)

The second is related to the above, which is if you purposely leave things on property that is not your own (especially in such a way that it inhibits others use of said property) then you have in many ways communicated that you are renouncing your claim to said property. Two examples 1) If you left your draws sitting in the middle of a shopping mall and someone picked them up the next day, that is not stealing (it may be ethically questionable not to try and find the owner, but it is not stealing) 2) If you left your draws sitting in someones front yard and someone else came along and took them, that is likewise not stealing.

Stop being lazy, pick up after yourself, and respect the part of the social contract which calls for reasonable access for public resources for all the public.

If you are climbing on your own property, carry on.

Good pun Jake!

"On a side note, MP should start a special bored where once a week someone can post the following three topics: ..."Italic Text

"Have the first climber hang the draws then everyone can climb on those hung draws. Retrieve them at the end of the day. Only the first climber hangs them. If you can only get one or two attempts in before you are done that just means you need to come back and try again another day. This is your puzzle. This is something you are working for. This is what makes for a lasting adventure or good times. This is why we work at this stuff, correct?"

Great but the first climber is still at a severe disadvantage. You're also assuming everyone wants to climb your project, which gets rarer the higher you go up in grades.

Would you say Chris Sharma should have hung the draws every day he wanted to try Jumbo Love?

(idk why MP isn't letting me use quotes)

yeah i would not leave my bike out there. slightly different due to cost to replace.. but you are right. I think the crux of this issue is traffic. if you want to leave your stuff out and behave as you please.... well make sure no one is around or make sure your stuff is as secure as you want it to be. i don't want to be a a gradist. i don't climb the steep hard sport all that much but 5.10 seems to be too low to deserve project draws. if a crag has permi-draws at that level for convenience, sure whatever. if that goes against your personal ethic take it up with the community that decided it was okay.

so what i am getting at it is... don't be surprised your project draws were stolen at lower grades and leave your sort of manky shit up there. not your $25-$30 sending draws. maybe use quik-links as a slight deterrent.

there is a popular craging route in Zion where a padlock is holding chain to a lower bolt. perhaps Padlocks could be pull tested and UIAA/CE certified for this use. then we could have FIXE CLIMB TECH ect making SS/PS padlock/chain/captive eye wire-gates...so that finally you can project your route with peace of mind. knowing that it takes a ring of keys the size of your fist to clean the draws off the route.

OP:
In CO, different people have mixed emotions about project draws in different areas. Some people think they are the bee’s knees. Some people believe that you should not leave them around and feel that it is a responsible act to take them down. For some people this is a similar sentiment of their responsibility to remove someone else's litter from the crag.
The reality of the situation is that project draws are controversial in some area of CO, just because you wish project draws were more accepted does not make it so. Leaving your draws there was a risk, and you got burned. To assume that everyone should abide by your values in this controversial issue, is kinda arrogant and short sighted.
Sorry you lost your shit.

J Antin wrote: Hey Tom, I hope you get your draws back. I should add however, my stance on project draws is dependent on the ethics of the area, but why leave draws on a route that has easy top access with a quick 1 minute hike to the top?

This is a good question.

matt c. wrote:OP: In CO, different people have mixed emotions about project draws in different areas. Some people think they are the bee’s knees. Some people believe that you should not leave them around and feel that it is a responsible act to take them down. For some people this is a similar sentiment of their responsibility to remove someone else's litter from the crag. The reality of the situation is that project draws are controversial in some area of CO, just because you wish project draws were more accepted does not make it so. Leaving your draws there was a risk, and you got burned. To assume that everyone should abide by your values in this controversial issue, is kinda arrogant and short sighted. Sorry you lost your shit.

Project draws aren't litter, and anyone who says otherwise is being obtuse. I don't care what it is, if someone leaves an item with the intention of retrieving it, you can either ignore it, return it to the owner, or turn it to whatever authority figure is appropriate.

David Barbour wrote: Project draws aren't litter, and anyone who says otherwise is being obtuse. I don't care what it is, if someone leaves an item with the intention of retrieving it, you can either ignore it, return it to the owner, or turn it to whatever authority figure is appropriate.

If some places project draws on a climb and never retrieves them they will become both dangerous and trash. Even if someone leaves them few a few months they can degrade enough to be dangerous.

I am personally ok with project draws, but to refer to people that disagree with you as obtuse is also, well, obtuse.

In certain places, climbing access is being carefully scrutinized and hanging draws in highly visible areas can affect access. In these areas, project draws can become litter the hour they are left at the cliff.

David Barbour wrote: Great but the first climber is still at a severe disadvantage. You're also assuming everyone wants to climb your project, which gets rarer the higher you go up in grades. Would you say Chris Sharma should have hung the draws every day he wanted to try Jumbo Love?

Severe disadvantage - is this not what they are trying to do, but get up a climb that is hard for them? How do others do this? Does everyone hang draws until they top out? Are you not trying to work out the problem cleanly? Once you do accomplish the climb with hung draws are you going to climb it again in the same manner, or are you going to up your game? Is everyone expected to hang and leave draws on everything hard to climb?

You still have to get the rope to the carabiner and clip it. You are doing this one handed just as you would clipping the quickdraw to the bolt. It is hard, and you may slip, or lose grip and fall, but you are climbing it as a project because it is hard.

No, not everyone, but maybe someone does and now they have to make decisions based off the last person's laziness.

Chris Sharma... is he the end all be all, or are you doing this for yourself? Do you think the person next to you is always ethical and does the right thing, or do they do what they feel they want to do no matter the consequences to others - because I'm Chris Sharma does not do anything for me. He is just another human with human attributes and faults.

If you cannot accomplish it the first time I believe you should start again and try to make it work until it does. How did he hang the draws the first time, and why not do it again?

Rob Warden, Space Lizard wrote:...so that finally you can project your route with peace of mind. knowing that it takes a ring of keys the size of your fist to clean the draws off the route.

Now you're talking difficulty.

matt c. wrote: If some places project draws on a climb and never retrieves them they will become both dangerous and trash. Even if someone leaves them few a few months they can degrade enough to be dangerous. I am personally ok with project draws, but to refer to people that disagree with you as obtuse is also, well, obtuse.

There's a difference between taking draws down because they look dangerous and taking draws because you disagree with project draws in general. Regardless, you should attempt to return them to the owner. Keeping them or throwing them away is at worst, theft, and at least, vindictive.