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Draws removed from project- Moffat Tunnel

Original Post
tom303 · · Colorado · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 160

Please return the draws that were removed from the left side mixed line at Moffat. These draws were not booty, I returned to re-work the moves this weekend. What gives you the impression that these were booty draws?

Also, I hope that you actually put in the work to lead up to my draws, but get the feeling you rapped down. I have no interest in delivering you beer for your services. Just go put my draws back.

Cheers

Allen Sanderson · · On the road to perdition · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 1,203

I hope you have read this thread …

mountainproject.com/v/quick…

Michael Beasley · · Boise, ID · Joined May 2015 · Points: 90

These kind of threads crack me up. And you try to belittle the person that took them by saying they had to rap the route, I hope it was their warm up. Clean your draws next time a relead the route by hanging new draws. I have never understood the fascination with leading routes with prehung draws. It's like saying you trad climb but in reality someone else has to place your gear for you and all you do is clip it. Go to the gym if you want bolts to have permadraws.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35

Tom,

You got your draws stolen, you needed to vent, and you posted here. Bad idea. Not only will you not get them back but now we're in store for pages of idiots that actually think it's ok. If the thief sees this, he'll be empowered to steal again. So that sucks.

Also, if you can clean them on rap, why did you leave them? Project draws are really only a thing on overhanging routes. Leaving them on a vertical route is kindof asking for it. Even if it's in a relatively dumpy ice climbing pullout.

Eric Klammer · · Eagle, CO · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 2,070

Yeah, that sucks and they probably knew better, but that link shows a mostly vertical route that goes at M6... Are project draws really necessary for something akin to ~5.10?

EeT · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 0

With your attitude, I wish I took them.

Jon Welchans · · Longmont Colorado · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 75

Anyone that takes anything that is not theirs, for any reason is a rottenass thief. Period.

Jake wander · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 195

Sucks your draws got taken. Hope you get em back.

On a side note, MP should start a special bored where once a week someone can post the following three topics: "how do I get over the fear of leading", "new to trad, what should I get for a rack?" And "someone stole my project draws"

tim · · Boulder, CO · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 507

I dunno, is m6 hard enough to leave draws on? I vote m8 and up.

Michael Beasley · · Boise, ID · Joined May 2015 · Points: 90

So leave no trace shouldn't apply to climbing. If everyone started leaving draws, fixed lines, crash pads, etc it would be chaos. This plays a part in why some areas we love get closed to climbing

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
Michael Beasley wrote:So leave no trace shouldn't apply to climbing. If everyone started leaving draws, fixed lines, crash pads, etc it would be chaos. This plays a part in why some areas we love get closed to climbing
A few project draws don't really seem like a LNT issue, since the route apparently starts just beside a mine and necessarily entails dry tool scratches and marks on the rock, as well as several in situ bolts.

LNT is often invoked by folks who haven't given the matter much thought, but is generally irrelevant in these situations. It's just a clandestine way to say "my aesthetic sensibilities are more important than yours."

If you don't like project draws, just say so. If you have a reasoned argument to make about them in this setting, feel free to make it.

Regardless, OP sorry your draws were stolen.
ton · · Salt Lake City · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 0

i don't like project draws.

it's arrogant, disrespectful, and lazy.

i didn't take them.

Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0
Jon W wrote:Anyone that takes anything that is not theirs, for any reason is a rottenass thief. Period.
Anyone who doesn't pick up after themselves is a lazy slob. Period.
Alex Vidal · · Durango, CO · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 40

I don't normally chime in on these matters, but...

This thread and also the ice climbing etiquette thread

demonstrate a level of entitlement in the newer generation of ice climbers that is appalling. These are moderate, farmed, and accessible cragging areas that cater to novice ice climbers. We should all be respectful of one another and deal with the rising popularity of our sport as well as we can.

That said, draws left on a moderate and popular dry tooling route are probably safely booty. Some humility may serve the OP in having them returned.

AV

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

I'll repeat what I say in most "stolen project draw" threads:

If you don't like project draws, fine. If you want to make a statement and pull the draws...fine. But man up and tell the person who left them exactly what you did and why. At the very least, leave their draws at a local shop, post a note on MP/ST etc. and post up why you think those draws should not have been left. There are lots of ways of showing your displeasure at project draws without being an unethical douchebag. The moment you keep the draws, you are a thief.

Just because the person who left them did something you consider to be unethical litter does not entitle you to do something even more unethical.

Mark Paulson · · Raleigh, NC · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 141

What I find amusing in these threads is that when you click on the profiles of people with loudest opposition to project draws, you invariably find that they're climbing nowhere near the level where project draws would be appropriate (IMO, 5.13 and up). Do what it takes to get to that level, and see if your opinions on the issue haven't changed.

However, to the OP; although stealing draws is wrong under any circumstances, realize that the concept of "project draws" only really works because A: usually the route is too hard for most climbers, so stealing is less of an issue, and B: climbers generally respect the notion and process of "projecting" the higher grades. It's an implied social contract. When you leave draws on easy (or easier) climbs, you not only leave them vulnerable to less savory (and usually less dedicated) climbers, but you may stoke the ire of people who actually rely on said social contract to work the hard grades.

BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

I have to first be honest here, for I've never climbed anything harder than 5.11. Pretty much everything I climb in my area is a short single pitch or two to three pitches only, and as with anywhere, some routes are harder than others.

I've never used project draws because I've never needed them, but the reason for using them in certain circumstances seems legitimate.

This being said, I cannot understand the reason for leaving them on a route for any period of time that I would not be there - people steal stuff... just because.

I see our sport/recreation just as any other. Usually, most sports/recreations are conducted in a public setting with public access.

Do golfers leave their clubs and kit on that number 12 hole so they may come back next weekend to try and par the hole because they double bogey it the weekend before? Does the tennis player leave the serve machine and balls all over the court to come back in two days to practice their backhand? Does a mountain biker leave his bike and tools used to build that extra whoop jump on the back part of that community trail because they will be back tomorrow to finish the construction of the jump - why lug all that around when you are coming back? The examples can go on...

Sure, it is a pain in the ass to collect this all back up after a hard day, but is it not also a pain in the ass to post here about how you have your gear stolen and now have the irritating inconvenience of having to buy new ones? How much time and effort is used in collecting those draws back off the climb compared to posting here, and buying new ones?

I'm not for it or against it, but you better be aware of the consequences involved if you do. Everyone runs that brain thing in their head before making a decision. If you make the decision to leave your stuff in a public area, no matter how remote, you are taking the chance that it is not there when you come back. Yes, stealing is wrong, bad, immoral, whatever, but having this thinking has not stopped it, correct?

I'm not about to take the chance of making that half hour to an hour or more hike just to get to my destination and have the whole day/time ruined by my gear not being there. Your call, I guess.

Yes, I'll have to assume some routes are really hard and it is much easier to leave gear up for an easy clip, but I believe you are cheating yourself. It is supposed to be hard for you, so keep working on it. It may not be too hard for others, though, so be respectful of the next person's experience.

On another note, if you do use project draws, can there be a standard marker made up for such a situation, such as, with industrial machine lockouts? Red tag the draw or something. At least others in the know will understand the meaning. Has this ever been discussed? Anybody do this with good results?

Don Ferris III · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 186

Everybody's just joking, right? I mean nobody seriously believes it's an acceptable practice to steal project draws do they? Cause that would be some fucked up, childish, entitled behavior. I love finding routes with draws, it allows me to play around on hard shit without any risk involved.

BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385
Don Ferris wrote: I mean nobody seriously believes it's an acceptable practice to steal project draws do they?
I don't believe this is the point. If someone, seriously, says it does not bother them then steal something of theirs and see if they don't start singing a different tune. Bet they do!

I think the crux of the issue is what is your responsibility as a climber and good practice in the use of gear in an area.
Benjamin Chapman · · Small Town, USA · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 18,818

Mark Paulson...it would appear from your profile that you don't climb anywhere near the level where "permadraws are appropriate,"either, therefore your commits regarding the validity of elite climbers utilizing permadraws are more opinion then fact as well. You leave gear on the wall regardless of difficult it's abandoned property and subject to seizure by whatever cretin comes along and decides to call it booty. Maybe the ethic sucks, but if you want to keep your gear safe, clean up and take it with you.

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

Its easy to puff your chest and balk at projecting M6. I read this and would think accident. Maybe the "thief" took them down and plans to give the draws back.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Colorado
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