A Serious Accident Has Happened - Now What?

Graham Johnson wrote:I am currently in exactly this position (I haven't returned to work yet, but I will soon). I was climbing in Chamonix last month, just about to finish a route called "Macho Couloir Direct". My partner was leading what was the last pitch, exiting out of the rocky gully onto a snow slope. He doesn't recall exactly kicking a rock off, but says he must have either touched it with his foot or possibly the rope loosened it. Either way, I was hit by a rock and now part (much of the lateral condyle of my left femur) of my knee will forever be in France. Helicopter rescue, surgery to patch me up, week in a french hospital, long flight home, more hospital, now recuperating and waiting for reconstructive surgery in January. I have only just been able to walk without external supports. Walked about 5km today. French police (they did the rescue) asked if I wanted to press charges. Absolutely not. Shit happens in the mountains. One could argue negligence on my partner's part, but that's just the risk you take when you go into the mountains. You've got to accept the risk of getting hurt when you go climbing - any sort of climbing - and you've got to be willing to forgive and take it on the head if and when it does happen. I'm not angry at my friend for kicking a rock onto me - it could have just as easily been the other way around. He sure feels guilty, that's punishment enough. Now what? I'm going to have my reconstructive surgery, I'm going to recover and I'm going to go climbing. When I go back to Cham, I will look up my friend and go climbing with him. I may start (alpine) climbing with telemark kneepads though!

Perfect example of an accident. We all accept certain risks when entering the mountains. Rockfall is one of those risks and while we try to minimize that risk we all know that at one point in time a rock will come down.

Negligence would be a belayer hunting for a Powerbar inside their backpack while belaying and promptly dropping the leader.

Because of the increasing number of people climbing, I think it is only a matter of time until we see lawsuits both civil and criminal emerging from private party (not guided) outdoor climbing incidents.

Certainly we are already seeing civil tort lawsuits in the gym setting.

Once these lawsuits pick up speed, I fear their effect on both access and gear manufacturers.

Lawsuits could profoundly change our sport.

My advice to the innocent and injured party:

Before the accident:

Get disability insurance.

Have health insurance.

If you don't have both of those, and you don't have wealthy family to bail you out, please don't take risks you can't afford.

After:

Live with the consequences.

I use "innocent and injured" because that is a phrase I've seen in lawsuits. It doesn't matter unless the other person can afford to bail you out. And even if they can, it's not necessarily a good reason to sue.

Deleted in deference to ongoing discussion

The common scenario is belayers dropping their leaders. It seems to happen with frightening frequency.

But consider this scenario (admittedly it is a law school exam type scenario):

A multi-pitch sport route goes on MP or in a guidebook.

It has bolted gear placements

The bolts near the gear placements get chopped.

Neither MP, the guidebook author, nor the first ascentionist immediately become aware of the changes.

It is not evident from the first pitch of the route that anything has changed.

Someone does not bring or does not know how to place gear gets killed.

Is there liability here? Is it civil? Is it criminal? Is it both?

The estate of the deceased climber, not the climber obviously will hold the civil claim—in other words, someone who knows nothing about climbing.

Who is going to get named in the civil lawsuit?

Who is going to get named in the civil lawsuit?

I would guess it would land at the feet of whoever has the biggest money pot - probably MP.com.

Likewise for belay failures at the gym - on the gym's door step.

... agreed ... can lead to profound changes in our sport ... through increased regulation ... demanded by the commercial entities who are being sued.

That there are lawsuits is not surprising. Hardly any of us have mentioned the two working it out together.

Yeah, I agree that working it out between them is best.

I mistakenly got the impression that in the scenario the person who was responsible and might have made the mistake wasn't amenable to working it out and that you were asking about the possibility of negligence.

Agreed. Easily inferred from what I said.

Why can't we all just stick with flame and ridicule on Internet climbing forums and leave it at that? Oh in a better world!

You are an asshat if you sue a climbing partner. Accept responsibility for the risks you take, use judgement when picking a partner.

I think the danger is less that a partner would try to sue, but more that a third party like a relative or insurance company trying to recover expenses would.

Bill Lawry wrote:This is a hypothetical question ... There is no right or wrong answer in terms of this thread.)

Bill Lawry wrote:... That is not really my primary meaning.

Bill Lawry wrote: ... assume partners don't know each other very well.

I have a feeling you're trying to ask something more specific than your first post implied, but I'll take a shot at answering your question.

I think when you rope up with someone, you become a team - you make decisions and accept the consequences as a team - whether that is enjoying success, dealing with an epic, or accepting the consequences of sometimes serious injury or worse.

If you're not prepared to accept the risk of placing that amount of trust in someone, don't climb with them. Or if you're not prepared to place that amount of trust in anyone, find a sport that is more of an individual endeavor rather than a partnership.

Obviously intentional harm would be an entirely different story - like someone cutting the rope or throwing a boulder at you with the intent of injuring or killing you. Or perhaps gross negligence - like, I don't know, storing your rope next to a vat of acid without telling your partner? I can't really think of real life examples of either.

But just as you might fall off your mountain bike and have to deal with a huge pile of medical bills you can't afford with no one to sue, the same can happen to one or both members of a climbing team. Everyone should try to have enough insurance that an accident wouldn't bankrupt them, and needs to assess the risks every time they go out - whether climbing, skiing, or driving their car - and accept the risks or avoid the activity.

Em Cos wrote:I have a feeling you're trying to ask something more specific than your first post implied, ....

Maybe. But not too much more specific.

I asked "Whats next?" knowing there were many answers to the scenario of one making a mistake and the other paying the price. If I was looking for anything more specific, it was that I wondered how many of us would work with our partner through his / her recovery when the recovery included financial hardship - without being forced by a lawsuit (if one can be).

Em Cos wrote:But just as you might fall off your mountain bike and have to deal with a huge pile of medical bills you can't afford with no one to sue, the same can happen to one or both members of a climbing team.

This seems to be the most common answer.

Can I drag you to my car and have an accident on the way home?

Hah! It is good to hear from you, Mike! :-)

I still recall that time years ago, Mike, at the base of Tombstone ... you 20 feet up without a piece in ... I stumbled back downhill giving you a bit of a tug .... but you held on ... I felt bad ... and you said calmly "Are you still with me, Bill?"

Thanks, Man.

Bill Lawry wrote: I wondered how many of us would work with our partner through his / her recovery when the recovery included financial hardship

So when you say "would work with our partner through their recovery when the recovery included financial hardship", despite the slightly odd phrasing it sounds like you're asking who would pay for their partners medical bills if they were involved in a climbing accident together?

I think the most reasonable and sensible way to financially handle medical bills from a serious accident is to purchase health insurance in advance. Everyone pays a little every month so that when someone has an unexpected loss, they are covered. It's a way to manage the risk. I don't want to have a large financial hardship or bankruptcy if I should suffer injury, so instead I'm willing to pay a little every month even if I may not need the coverage any given month. I don't see that it's reasonable that I pay a monthly health insurance premium for my climbing partners, and it also doesn't seem reasonable that while I pay a monthly premium to prevent a catastrophic financial loss in my own life that I should take on the financial burdens of someone else who did not protect themselves similarly. If you don't have health insurance, you're taking a gamble - you benefit by saving the premium cost every month, but you're risking huge medical bills if something should happen. Everyone makes their own decisions about how to manage risk. If you choose not to have health coverage, and then you choose to participate in an activity which then causes injury, you should be willing to accept the consequences.

That being said, if you feel so moved to pay or help pay for someone else's medical bills, have at it. It's a very generous act that will likely be greatly appreciated by someone in need.

It is indeed an answer: my bad, but you really should have gotten insurance to cover that.

"An answer", yes. Is it your answer?

Cause if you were trying to summarize MY answer, I would leave off the "my bad" part.

Or to put it another way, from the perspective of the injured party:

My bad, I knew I was taking a risk running around without health insurance. I gambled that nothing bad would ever happen to me and I lost, and now I'm totally screwed. Oh, no! No, that's VERY generous of you, but I can't take your money, as I am not your spouse or legal dependent. No, thank you, but I will find a way to handle my life.

Our basic reactions to having caused the injury (the original premise) would be different. I did not expect everyone's would be the same.

That is not to say my resources are unlimited, and may not be needed I expect for most of my partners.