New Yosemite Free Climbs Select Guidebook Almost Done - Call for Photos!

Erik,

This thread has done more damage to your potential guidebook sales than you can imagine. And you could have stopped it with comments about retrobolting, but you refuse to talk about it.

Reading through this thread has convinced me purchasing ES's book would be a poor decision. However, I have never been to Yosemite, and I am considering taking my first trip there in the not too distant future. Guidebooks are helpful for getting to know the area. Perhaps we could turn this thread into suggestions for resources for climbers that have not been. What guidebooks/resources for the area are available>

Georgehh wrote:Reading through this thread has convinced me purchasing ES's book would be a poor decision. However, I have never been to Yosemite, and I am considering taking my first trip there in the not too distant future. Guidebooks are helpful for getting to know the area. Perhaps we could turn this thread into suggestions for resources for climbers that have not been. What guidebooks/resources for the area are available>

If you're still pretty new to Yosemite, Supertopo is just fine. Ried's old book is still very useful. And you could probably get a lot done just using MP.

csproul wrote: If you're still pretty new to Yosemite, Supertopo is just fine. Ried's old book is still very useful. And you could probably get a lot done just using MP.

+1
A first timer has no need for either of the new guidebooks being prepared.

csproul wrote: If you're still pretty new to Yosemite, Supertopo is just fine. Ried's old book is still very useful. And you could probably get a lot done just using MP.

I use Ried's book and the STopo book is also available. Can't do all of that in a few weeks anyway. I tried...
MP.com info for the high crags on the E. Side and Tuolumne was more than adequate for a few visits there as well.

csproul wrote: If you're still pretty new to Yosemite, Supertopo is just fine. Ried's old book is still very useful. And you could probably get a lot done just using MP.

To be fair, Supertopo book has about 240 routes and it causes a lot of traffic jam. Last time I went to do Serenity, there were people bivying at the base to get a head start. That shit is ridiculous.

divnamite wrote: To be fair, Supertopo book has about 240 routes and it causes a lot of traffic jam. Last time I went to do Serenity, there were people bivying at the base to get a head start. That shit is ridiculous.

I know it happens and a lot of people have had your same experience, but I've done a lot of the ST routes. I'd say I've rarely ventured away from the most popular routes and I have almost never had to wait or been turned away. And I climb almost exclusively on weekends. Maybe I've been lucky, but name the ST route 5.10 and under, and there's a good chance that I did it on a weekend and there were no crowd problems. Disclaimer: I've never climbed SS and it took 4-5 tries before finally climbing Nutcracker.

Man, those 25 hardcore internet warriors are really gonna kill the sales of the book. ES should just give up and let Clint and Ed put their book out in ____ years.

divnamite wrote: To be fair, Supertopo book has about 240 routes and it causes a lot of traffic jam. Last time I went to do Serenity, there were people bivying at the base to get a head start. That shit is ridiculous.

Serenity was crowded 35 years ago - long before ST and Sons. So was Maxine's Wall, Peruvian Flake, Central Pillar, anything on Manure Pile (I once waited for Tommy Caldwell to finish top roping After Six), and a host of other super popular climbs.

Hi Gang,

I know it's hard to believe, but the ethics questions are much more complicated than can be discussed easily....and we have so much to talk about the guidebook. I'm interested in why people think the guidebooks are so bad to Yosemite. I've been going to the crags for many months now, and every time I go I hear 'oh thank goodness someone is putting out a new guidebook'. How did it get so bad? Why do the current guidebook authors not care to correct/fix their work? Why won't they just contact someone in the climbing community here and say 'hey, if you want to fix this up, go for it'. Trust me, you could make more money working at a gas station than off a guidebook. It is a labor of love, for sure. (to be clear - I'm finishing up the last couple topos to my book - so I'm not bringing this up because I want to partner with anyone else, I'm just surprised that folks have let things decay so badly).

Interesting idea about turning the thread into a resource for Yosemite climbers. My Yosemitebigwall.com does that bigwallers, for sure. Once the Free Climbs App is out I'll have time to put together a similar website for the free climbs.

Nah, I didn't put any bolts on Mungenella and Commitment. Personally I think you should always walk off those climbs, but I know I'm getting older and the new generation has their own ideas ;).

Keep the pictures/suggestions/topo corrections comin!
Woot Woot!
Erik Sloan
Erik@yosemitebigwall.com

Thanks for the answer about munginella/commitment.

Mike. wrote: The guy who: • Added bolts to free climbs (BOR is the most recent/glaring example; others exist by his own admission) • Added bolts to aid and big wall routes (Great Slab Route is the most glaring example, circumventing cruxes and traversing sections; others exist by his admission. Retro-bolts existing ladders to accommodate 5'7" climbers, states this is beneficial) • Threatened to replace removed retro-bolts • Uses a power drill • Minimal (none IME) attempt to re-use existing holes (when directly asked, wrote "I always try to reuse holes"[possible paraphrase on the quote]) • Minimal/no research before rebolting (places a fat bolt/hanger everywhere there is metal or a BAT hook hole) • Limbed trees to the point where YNP LE posts a forum thread about it • Excavated bivy base platforms with mechanical means (a come-along) • Publicly solicited donations for illegal fixed lines which are not used for climbing (so-called alcove swing) • Routinely disregards a chorus of opposition to these practices • Attempts to undermine the hard work of honest, active climbers donating their time to accurately documenting climbs

Most of your list is crap.

Did you really bring up the Alcove swing as an argument piece? How dumb. The rope swings on ElCap and high lines all over the valley were put up by climbers if not the most famous. Did you see them in the videos too? Yep. If you didn't speak up years ago, petition video producers, or take them down then your complaints don't mean anything.

(If you sent photos and I've just sent an email saying thanks. Please bear with me - It's supposed to storm next week so I'll be spending some days going through all the photos then, and will let you know if we are going to use any - Keep em comin!)

Yo Gang,

Thank you for continuing to show interest in this guidebook. I think everyone is really going to be happy with the resulting guide.

For the folks who say 'there is so much controversy around this book'. Not really - if you look up threads from 2008 - 2014 when I came out with my bigwall book, you will find many, many more threads where(mostly the same), few voices are saying that that book was never going to come out, and that no one was ever going to buy it. Yosemite Bigwalls: The Complete Guide has sold 2,000 copies in just over a year - For sure a record for a bigwall book. The reviews on mp, amazon.com, etc., are all glowing. I'm a well known bigwall climber - a relatively small sport, and there was supposedly tons of 'controversy' about the book.

Of course there are folks, like Mike Ousley, that believe in some litany of things I may or may not have done, that are 'wrong'. You can't win every argument in life, and I try to not have any attachments. I've engaged in several ethics threads with those people. I love the discussion.

I love the 'you've done so much damage...' comments. Truly, if you believe that, that the few voices on here are the majority(and that I would still be posting on this thread if it was doing more harm than good), then you should spend some time on the cliffs, and in the meadows, of Yosemite.

My guides are for the climbers, not for the talkers. They're for the people who want to celebrate their public lands. I, unlike the other guidebook authors, have a history of making resources to help people do that - a website dedicated to bigwall climbing in Yosemite, Yosemitebigwall.com, a small set of pages for climbing in Wawona. All offered, for years, for free. What are the other guidebook authors doing? How is what they're doing helping people go climbing?

Like I said I posted all the topos for free with the bigwall book, because I realized it was going to take years to finish, and I wanted folks to be able to enjoy all of the routes. The result was I got so much feedback, and my and Roger's book was so much better. I'm hoping that each of you will help us edit this guide when it comes out first in App form(for just a few bucks!).

This thread really is about a guidebook(app, print book). I'm excited to show you guys soon what we've been working on. Yosemite is Shining - get out here and live it up on the Stones!

Woot Woot!
Erik
erik@yosemitebigwall.com

It definitely seems unusual to me that Ed Hartouni, who I offered to work with on this new Yosemite Select Book, is on this thread saying that it is inappropriate for me to put out this guide, while offering no timeline for when his book will actually be done.

I can not understand how Erik Sloan could interpret anything that I have said as implying I believe it is "inappropriate" for him to put out a guide. In almost every thread on this topic across the vast internet where I have posted, I have consistently stated that I believe that anyone could put out a guide.

As for the Comprehensive, we have done a huge amount of work on it, and quite contrary to the innuendo that we aren't working hard, I spend most of my evenings working on some aspect or another of the guide. Most of my Valley climbing this past few years have been centered on some research aspect for the guide (I remember when Greg Barnes was doing something similar for the SuperTopo Select). I can't wait to recover that time back once we complete the project.

When in the Valley I happily engage anyone in a discussion of the Comprehensive, including Erik Sloan (over many years).

From my perspective, Erik Sloan offered to let us (and this "invitation" was limited to Don, Eric Gabel and me) work on his Select because it would have made that Select much better, at some point it was clear that the same attention to detail did not exist for other parts of the proposed publication. While Erik Sloan has constantly stated that he is providing a "service" to the community, I felt (along with the others on the Comprehensive team) that the community would be better served with accurate route descriptions and a high quality guide.

Not only that, but being close to completion on the Comprehensive, it seemed that working on the Select would be a distraction. Having multiple publications with the same information did not appear to be a bargain for the climbing community.

We very much appreciate that the cost of a guide is an important consideration for many climbers, and that "publication" spans a very much larger range of media than existed at the time the last Comprehensive guide was published. We are working through the many ideas to bundle the information that constitutes the Comprehensive guide into formats that make it useful for the users of the guide. This is possible because of the work to digitize the content and use standard publication software for its presentation. We hope to offer this information at a reasonable cost.

The past guides in this line have had hand drawn content, with hand written notations and somewhat rudimentary digital formats, none of which were available to us when we started. We did start with the topo bitmap files that constituted the 2005 work of Don Reid. In the future the YCA will be in possession of all of the source files: digital, analog, images created for the guide, and the various (voluminous) bits of source information.

I believe that such an organization will have the resources and the conviction to steward the guidebook into the future and provide that information as a resource for climbers and climbing in Yosemite Valley, free from personal interest. It is the YCA, largely the work of Ken Yager, who have made it possible for us to work on the Comprehensive. The YCA is incorporated as a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, as such, you can look up all its business details in the California Registry of Charitable Trusts.

My response here hopefully clears up some of Erik Sloan's false impressions of what is going on with the Comprehensive. To a large extent, Erik Sloan has not been even a minor contributor to free climbing in Yosemite Valley and as such has not been consulted on the details of FAs, etc... going into the Comprehensive. Erik Sloan, by way of working on his Big Wall guide, has been a source of information on the free climbing variations of the big wall routes, a logical overlap with the free climbing guide.

As for a timeline, I can assure Alexey that he will have the Comprehensive guidebook in his hand in time to do many sweet new climbs (and perhaps he can "read between the lines" for his own creations) long before he hangs up his climbing shoes. Beyond that I have no more details except my "to do" list gets noticeably shorter by the day (a major tick occurred last week that I think will make the final product even more awesome!).

Erik Sloan wrote:Hi Gang, I know it's hard to believe, but the ethics questions are much more complicated than can be discussed easily...

No, there are ethics questions which are too complicated. They are actually quite simple and are only complicated or difficult to discuss for people like you who obviously have a hard time grasping even the notion of ethics and for whom any such discussion is simply difficult.

Erik Sloan wrote:....and we have so much to talk about the guidebook. I'm interested in why people think the guidebooks are so bad to Yosemite. I've been going to the crags for many months now, and every time I go I hear 'oh thank goodness someone is putting out a new guidebook'. How did it get so bad? Why do the current guidebook authors not care to correct/fix their work? Why won't they just contact someone in the climbing community here and say 'hey, if you want to fix this up, go for it'.

...

Erik Sloan wrote:but I know I'm getting older and the new generation has their own ideas ;). Keep the pictures/suggestions/topo corrections comin! Woot Woot!

The ever-cheerful tone in the face of reality and the resilience of the ever-present sell is breathtaking in its consistency and borders on narcissistic sociopathy.

Healyje wrote: The ever-cheerful tone in the face of reality and the resilience of the ever-present sell is breathtaking in its consistency and borders on narcissistic sociopathy.

Really, there is only one thing around here that is 'borderline...'

Healyje wrote: The ever-cheerful tone in the face of reality and the resilience of the ever-present sell is breathtaking in its consistency and borders on narcissistic sociopathy.

Now this is serious. Those 3 routes he added anchors to in the middle must really be some serious classics huh? Hitler, Dahmer, Bundy, Gacy and now ES!

FUK man, I'm never going back to Yosemite.

Bump.

Hi Gang,

Hey Ed you can just respond to me directly. I'm sorry if I misunderstood your complaints on this thread. Let's make it more clear - you seem to be suggesting that your group, and the YCA, are better suited to making a guidebook than me and a bunch of local climbers.

I think at the end of the day most people are interested in the actually guide, not squabbling. So how about you post up one or two of your topos Ed? How about you show people what you have been working on? I've posted several topos here - how about you post your version of one of those, and we can all see how superior it is?

As for your suggestion that the YCA, a local nonprofit, will be a better steward of the guidebook information than a motivated local would ever be, I'll offer this story:

From 2008 - 2012 I was working hard on trying to collect information for a new, comprehensive Yosemite Bigwalls book(published in 2014). Don Reid published the old book in 1993, the year that he moved to Joshua Tree and quit spending much time in the Valley. I contacted tons of friends and bigwall fa ists, and they assured me that Donny was never really a bigwall climber and that he had no plans to put out a new bigwall book. I contacted Donny several times, but he wasn't ready to partner with anyone to produce a new book.

So here is the interesting part - eventually in 2012, after driving with my whole family down to Joshua Tree to Donny's house, Donny agreed to let me 'use' the files that he had collect from bigwall fa ists, and what people had sent in as corrections to existing topos. It was pretty weak lot, but it was something, and I was stoked to see Donny offer something to the new book, because otherwise he had been pretty distant toward the whole thing.

The whole summer that Roger and I are working on our book(2013), Donny is emailing and calling about how he 'wants his bigwall file back'. I'm like sure, we're almost done with it, but why don't we combine all of the stuff you've collected and all of the stuff I've collected and just give it all to Ken Yager for the archives. Oh no says Donny, I just want my bigwall file back. Now mind you this is a guy that never bigwall climbed much, and didn't have any original content in that file - it literally just consisted of topos that people had handed him, or that had been mailed to the address in the back of his bigwall book. And he didn't want to just give it to Ken Yager and the YCA, he believed that he owned the material and wanted to keep it. Well that's ridiculous that you will have half of the archive files and I will have the other half, you can just have them all I said. And I gave Don Reid all of the original Yosemite bigwall topos that I had collected.

This summer I realized that there were a couple of those original topos that I didn't have copies of any longer, so I called Donny and asked if he would bring up his bigwall file to the Facelift, so I could copy a couple files. I told him that I had collected more original topos and I would give them all to him too.

Again when Donny was here this fall, I asked him if he was sure that he didn't want to just give the whole 'bigwall file' to Kenny and the YCA, and he said no he wasn't ready to do that.

I only share this story in hopes that Donny changes his tune. I gave him all the topos that I collected(after scanning them of course). Ed - Will your agreement with the YCA give them permanent rights to all of your content?

I'm excited for your project Ed - and would really love to see some of your topos. I'll post up another good one here today for folks to check out.

Woot Woot!
Erik
Erik@Yosemitebigwall.com

As I said, relentless...

"I only share this story in hopes that Donny changes his tune." -ES

Oh the irony...it hurts so much...