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How Rap Slings came to the Gunks

Thomas Stryker · · Chatham, NH · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

One climber sees one rappeller put a rope around a tree and you decide we need an authoritative rule from some agency?

GabeO · · Boston, MA · Joined May 2006 · Points: 302
Happiegrrrl wrote:How does Peterskill get it across that anchoring off Pitch Pines is verbotten? It does seem they have gotten the message across, and though of course there are still those who will do it, the general awareness is that it is not acceptable. One idea might be to create a poster which van be placed in the Uberfall Kisosk. A "Climing PSA" sort of thing.
There's already more than a "general awareness" that rapping directly off trees is a no-no.

I've seen it happen at the Gunks, too. Once in all the years I've been climbing.

Of all the moronic things I've seen climbers do at the Gunks, this is one of the mildest.

GO
MojoMonkey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 66
Tom Stryker wrote:One climber sees one rappeller put a rope around a tree and you decide we need an authoritative rule from some agency?
Anecdotal, but I've also seen it multiple times over the years. The silliest was a guy rapping off from above Ken's crack with his rope around the big tree. I imagine that would have been a bear to pull. He let me pull his rope back up to remove it from the tree and drop it to him.

Most don't seem malicious, and just hadn't considered the impact. Mentioning that the sap from some trees can leave them with a sticky rope helps discourage them too.

I have met a few that just don't care or get aggressive. In my experience they are a minority though, and an effective way to get info out couldn't hurt.
Christian Fracchia · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 80
Tom Stryker wrote:One climber sees one rappeller put a rope around a tree and you decide we need an authoritative rule from some agency?
If it was only one then I would agree, but has become a regular occurrence. Just ask the guides.
Ryan G · · San Diego · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 275

Can someone put a dedicated rap route on Crimson Chrysalis?

divnamite · · New York, NY · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 90
Ryan-G wrote:Can someone put a dedicated rap route on Crimson Chrysalis?
The entire Crimson Chrysalis route is a dedicated rap route!

Before Preserve raises the price or put rules in place. The Preserve should put out educational programs not just at the Gunks, but reach out to local climbing gyms as well.
Thomas Stryker · · Chatham, NH · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

Lol. I just looked at my copy of FOTH. It has an illustration of rappel anchors with a rope around the tree, no slings. What you all see as this huge faux pas was once standard practice. While I agree with almost everything rgold ever posts, my observation, which starts in 1978, to 1983, during which I made about 160 trips to climb in the Gunks, is that people rapped off trees all the time. In 1983 I moved to North Conway, but go back just about every year to the Gunks.

A frequent scenario was you had already climbed the route to the top. Back then nothing was in a guidebook if it did not top out, so as now, there were good first pitches with scruffier finishes. We spent whole days, probably whole weekends without topping out.

In light of concerns about tree bark destruction, people began to leave slings, just a sling. That lasted about ten years, and it was messy, as the wisdom was once you pulled a rope through it, the sling was not suitable for further use.

Then came rings and leaver biners. Then came bolts. Then came toproping. I don't think any sane person could make the claim rappelling directly off trees is on the rise, and I would put the incidence of it at less than 5% of what it once was. I think some of you see a groove and think the guy you saw last week caused it.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I doubt very much your authoritarian rules or agencies to enforce them would cause any appreciable difference in the occasional un-informed rappeller's actions. Instead the rest of us will get tooled by another lazy ranger or cop, who will eventually be pressured into fining enough people for infractions to pay their salary and benefits.

Far more trees were destroyed building the carriage road, the parking lots, the chain link fence, the campsites and the multi million dollar visitor center. I don't doubt some trees died from bark destruction on the cliff, but it looks little changed from when I first climbed there in 1978.

Be careful what you wish for. Once your authoritarian rules and the tools to enforce them come, there is no putting the genie back in the bottle.

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
Tom Stryker wrote:One climber sees one rappeller put a rope around a tree and you decide we need an authoritative rule from some agency?
Read Hardin's philosophical work on tragedy of the commons and you will understand how my comment relates. But in the end, it's private property and there's already an 'agency', the preserve. Seems you're not familiar with the area.
Thomas Stryker · · Chatham, NH · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

I'm familiar with the Tragedy of the Commons. I'm not much of a philosopher, so I just read the Wiki page several years ago. All I will say about my familiarity with the area is that it spans over 35 years. You guys like to dismiss any opinions that do not align with yours as fanciful wishing we could go back in time, all the while ignoring the fact that people who have climbed there for decades actually have a far better grasp of the changes, and the problems they wrought.

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945

Since you're familiar with the area and the issues then why would you make that comment you did before about me deciding? Your comment seemed to imply you didn't know there was already an authoritative rule, the Preserve. Not being dismissive at all actually and I agree with your last post about getting into a downward spiral of fees/cops/enforcement/beuracracy. Only problem is all this already exists in the form of The Preserve.

But regardless of that rapping on trees is poor form and bad style these days due to the popularity of the sport and the damage that we see caused over the last few decades.

Thomas Stryker · · Chatham, NH · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

No one anywhere in this thread is implying anything other than that rapping off trees is a bad idea, including me. If pretending I don't know about the preserve makes you feel better have at it.

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
Tom Stryker wrote:If pretending I don't know about the preserve makes you feel better have at it.
Clearly you were just instigating before or entirely missed the point of my first comment. Have a nice day Tom...
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Tom Stryker wrote:No one anywhere in this thread is implying anything other than that rapping off trees is a bad idea, including me.
Wha? Your post where you wrote this is loaded with implication:
Tom Stryker wrote:One climber sees one rappeller put a rope around a tree and you decide we need an authoritative rule from some agency?
MojoMonkey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 66
Tom Stryker wrote:Lol. I just looked at my copy of FOTH. It has an illustration of rappel anchors with a rope around the tree, no slings. What you all see as this huge faux pas was once standard practice. While I agree with almost everything rgold ever posts, my observation, which starts in 1978, to 1983, during which I made about 160 trips to climb in the Gunks, is that people rapped off trees all the time. In 1983 I moved to North Conway, but go back just about every year to the Gunks.
It is a huge faux pas at a place with the traffic the Gunks receives. That tree-only standard practice might make sense in a remote alpine setting but would quickly add up on Three Pines, which sees almost constant climber traffic in-season. I'd wager the cliffs receive a bit more climber traffic these days than the late 70s and early 80s.
Thomas Stryker · · Chatham, NH · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

The "implication" is nothing more than it doesn't happen enough anymore to make it worth empowering some agency with a rule.

So Morgan Patterson, if there is already an " authoritative rule " in place as you suggest, what was it you were clamoring for?

Thomas Stryker · · Chatham, NH · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

It is a huge faux pas anywhere today as far as I am aware. You missed the point. People did it all the time, the vast majority of the trees survived. Hardly anyone does it now, and they usually get a lecture or a clue, and change, all without more rules or enforcers.

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945

Nothing... I was agreeing with Rgold and trying to point out that this fits into the Tragedy of the Commons theory. You can relax now...

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
Tom Stryker wrote: The "implication" is nothing more than it doesn't happen enough anymore to make it worth empowering some agency with a rule.
BUT there already is an agency empowered with this... as you said you knew but somehow forgot between then and this comment.

Are you advocating that the Preserve stop trying to mitigate this issue? Maybe you're just trolling? I'm not sure but either way have a nice day dude!
Thomas Stryker · · Chatham, NH · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

I'm saying that further rules are not needed as we already have stopped 95% of it through changes in climber habits and education, and that establishing more rules isn't going to get it to 100% any more than 100% pay for a day pass, or people have stopped climbing at Sky Top 100%.

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
Tom Stryker wrote:I'm saying that further rules are not needed as we already have stopped 95% of it through changes in climber habits and education
I agree with that...and add bolted rap stations.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northeastern States
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