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The Bolting End-Game

jonathan knight · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2006 · Points: 265

Don't take it Jeremy! Shit tons of bolts in Euroland.

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Jeremy in Inyokern wrote: Really? I'd bet that there are more bolts in Colorado and California than in the rest of the world combined.
I'm starting to think that you're just trolling, it's not possible that someone can really be this ignorant is it?
jonathan knight · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2006 · Points: 265

Speaking of bets, going with SS inland looks like a good one, and it's a reasonable ask of climbers especially when coupled with national/local support of initiatives, and documentation.

More folks would fall off the bus if we were pushing for Ti everywhere, but I'll be happy to clip it if people go that extra mile. Whether to use 304 is a tougher question. Too bad Power bolts aren't 316.

Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
John Byrnes wrote:I don't know of any stainless bolt placed in the U.S. that has lasted 50 years (1965).
SLC-6 at VAFB is near mid-60's vintage.

LC-40 at CCAFS similar.

Both locations near salt water.

Hmmm. Lot of fastener and corrosion data from those locations/situations...

Interesting to note that when the VAB was built at the Cape, they drilled into limestone to anchor the building (over 4000 steel rods at 160 feet deep). They had to account for the galvanic current. Used over a million fasteners.

When I used to visit those locations (spent weeks at a time on SLC-6, SLC-4E and LC-41)...I used to get a kick out of the stainless fasteners used in/on the urinals in the bathrooms. Now, that's a corrosive environment! Ha ha...

I've always thought some of the info from MSFC/NASA with regard to fastener testing was somewhat pertinent to climbing anchors. Those old launch complexes have gobs of fasteners installed into concrete...all sittin' out in the weather...percolating away...
Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
jonathan knight wrote:Don't take it Jeremy! Shit tons of bolts in Euroland.
I can think of one small Greek island that has more bolts than Colorado and California combined...!
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Who Dat wrote: It's also important to keep in mind that pure H2O will not conduct electricity - it needs electrolytes in solution.
In addition, water exposed to low voltages, even with minerals in solution, does not conduct electricity well. If you throw the probes of a multimeter into a cup of water (which uses 3 VDC for testing), you will get around 600,000 ohms (or so I did). However, if you throw 120 VAC from your wall into the same cup, it will spark and flip your circuit breaker.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
John Byrnes wrote: All true. It's because it's not worth their time to get the guarantee in real rock past their legal department. It has nothing to do with the actual performance of the product.
So why did you make this up?:-
"The "50 Years" quote is to conform to an international construction standard which is very conservative. Think of it this way, they guarantee AT LEAST 50 years, with no end date. The information I got from Hilti is similar to the situation with Ti: the lifespan is "indefinite"."

Hilti (and the rest) give NO guarantee regarding the lifetime of their product (they don´t give any guarantee of any sort in fact)and the European Technical Approval specifically says the indications on working life cannot be intepreted as a guarantee:-
"The provisions made in this European technical approval are based on an assumed working life of the anchor of 50 years. The indications given on the working life cannot be interpreted as a guarantee given by the producer, but are to be regarded only as a means for choosing the right products in relation to the expected economically reasonable working life of the works."
Mike Bond · · Kentucky · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 3,191
John Byrnes wrote: Bolts DO fail this way, most recently #2 on Easy Skanking pulled out this summer. Last summer, I think it was on the Path, and didn't a bolt pull on Pump O'rama in the last year?
Did these bolts truly pull out? If they were 5-Peice bolts, did the sleeve and cone actually come out... or did the bolt become a spinner to an extent to where it disengaged from the cone and thus pulled out?
John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
dnoB ekiM wrote: Did these bolts truly pull out? If they were 5-Peice bolts, did the sleeve and cone actually come out... or did the bolt become a spinner to an extent to where it disengaged from the cone and thus pulled out?
Let's see... I saw the bolt from Path on the picnic table at Anti-phil. The sleeve was not on it. As I remember, it was a rusted 5-piece. It was a "working bolt", normally skipped en pointe, and pulled when someone clipped into it directly.

I didn't see the bolt from Easy Skanking, just saw the hole and heard that it didn't pull during a fall (or it woulda been ugly).

I only heard about the bolt on Pump O'Rama. Maybe someone here has more info.

But I don't think it really matters if the sleeve/wedge comes out at the same time. If the threads rust to the point that tension is released, that thing is coming out.
Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71
20 kN wrote: In addition, water exposed to low voltages, even with minerals in solution, does not conduct electricity well. If you throw the probes of a multimeter into a cup of water (which uses 3 VDC for testing), you will get around 600,000 ohms (or so I did). However, if you throw 120 VAC from your wall into the same cup, it will spark and flip your circuit breaker.
and if bullfrogs had wings snakes would be scared. so what. does this have anything to do with degrading metals in a climibing environment?
John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
Jim Titt wrote: So why did you make this up?:- "The "50 Years" quote is to conform to an international construction standard which is very conservative. Think of it this way, they guarantee AT LEAST 50 years, with no end date. The information I got from Hilti is similar to the situation with Ti: the lifespan is "indefinite"." Hilti (and the rest) give NO guarantee regarding the lifetime of their product (they don´t give any guarantee of any sort in fact)and the European Technical Approval specifically says the indications on working life cannot be intepreted as a guarantee:- "The provisions made in this European technical approval are based on an assumed working life of the anchor of 50 years. The indications given on the working life cannot be interpreted as a guarantee given by the producer, but are to be regarded only as a means for choosing the right products in relation to the expected economically reasonable working life of the works."
I grant you that this is the official line, and yes, there is no "guarantee". My bad for using the word. But it's also clearly legal mumbo-jumbo intended to avoid lawsuits.

Engineers build things with a safety margin dependent upon a long list of approximations and extrapolations, and then down-grade by the perceived risk to life and property. The UIAA standards leverage many engineering standards, as you know, and will continue to leverage them. So if you want to nit-pick, complain to Warthog (you know who I mean) who is using that construction standard in the new guidelines, not me.

I've also spoken at length with a Hilti Tech who told me about the life expectancy of RE-500, off-the-record. 200 years is conservative, but of course, none of us will live to see it.

This Texas highway interchange is glued together with Hilti RE-500. Does anyone really believe the structure won't last 50 years? It's already been there for ~10.
Don't stand under this in 50 years!
John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
Brian in SLC wrote: I can think of one small Greek island that has more bolts than Colorado and California combined...!
Yup, and they are replacing their breaking stainless bolts (due to SCC) with more stainless bolts because they are cheap. So they'll need to replace them again in another 10 years... They're just wasting their time and money.

A approximately 10 year old Raumer 316 "marine grade" stainless steel bolt in Kalymnos.
Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
John Byrnes wrote: Yup, and they are replacing their breaking stainless bolts (due to SCC) with more stainless bolts because they are cheap. So they'll need to replace them again in another 10 years... They're just wasting their time and money.
Disputed...

dpmclimbing.com/articles/vi…

Plenty of spicy comments here:

climbing.co.za/2013/05/kaly…

Anyhoo...FWIW...
jonathan knight · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2006 · Points: 265

That's a great thread with a wealth of knowledge. Thanks Brian. If it was my own route somewhere near the sea shore, I'd go with Ti. Stevie Haston is going that direction on Gozo, and I know he cares.

I just went endgame on one of my own routes from the mid nineties located in the middle of one of the largest deserts on the planet. At least it's the most reasonable endgame available. 316 Wave Bolts with Powers AC100+ Gold in limestone with extreme temperature swings, sagebrush rebellions, brothels, and the threat of mining. Is radiation a factor?

One thing that I'm concerned about is the introduction of corrosion from carbon steel. I've done a fair bit of re-bolting and ultimately there are a lot of SS hangers that are serviceable. After just two years installed a the aforementioned crag in the middle of a desert, they are showing corrosion and what will likely become pitting. I believe it is from being in the same bag/bucket with the rest of the pulled, plated steel hardware. If you want to reuse the SS hangers don't bathe them in rust!

This makes me wonder what folks think about some method of re-polishing SS to mitigate this type of corrosion and the tea stains that are so common on our SS hangers that were installed with plated Rawls. Of course, I'm just as happy to take the whole lot to the metal recycler, but I see this as an potential issue for newly installed SS hardware that we want to last.

DrRockso RRG · · Red River Gorge, KY · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 815

The simplest thing to do that seems to be effective is washing the hangers good with dawn soap and water. I'll sometimes use a little wd40 and a paper towel to get off the rust mark from the bolt before I wash with soap. Of course don't use a carbon steel hammer to place your wave bolts, you can buy the installation tool, use a SS hammer, dead blow hammer or a big rubber mallet. I usually just bore out the hole so they go in without hammering. In softer rock like sandstone, when you pound the wave bolt in it grinds up against the side of the hole, and you can inadvertenly reintroduce sand and dust into the hole and your glue.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

Just rinsing them off should be fine. One step up would be to use Barkeeper's Friend to polish them. A step up from that would be formal cleaning first, then passivation (150 degree F. distilled water/ 10% anhydrous critic acid solution by volume, add hangers for 30 min, remove and rinse with distilled water and wipe well with dry, clean cloth).

Bruce Hildenbrand · · Silicon Valley/Boulder · Joined Apr 2003 · Points: 3,615
John Byrnes wrote: The bolts higher up, showed not only much more corrosion on the head, but couldn't be unscrewed due to excessive internal rust. I broke them off with by bouncing on a 16" breaker-bar and a 6-sided socket. Now, with that much internal rust, how much longer would it be before the bolt pulled out?
John,

where did the bolts break? I have had 5-piece Powers bolts break when I tried to remove them because the cone had rusted onto the bolt and would not turn. In this instance, the bolt breaks right down near the end where the threads for the cone are located when using a breaker bar to attempt to loosen it. Personally, I don't think this makes for a weak bolt especially if you consider shear strength to be the most important factor. It is just that plated steel will eventually rust.
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422

As a side note, two guys just took an anchor fall on an anchor I replaced in 2006. When I went to replace it back then I put the breaker bar on the righthand bolt, but then needed to adjust my leash and so took both hands off the breaker bar to do it. While I was doing so the bolt broke under the weight of the breaker bar alone. The lefthand bolt broke with essentially no pressure after only a quarter turn of the breaker bar. Nothing about the anchor's external appearance gave a clue the bolts were that bad. I mean it looked suck, but not that suck.

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
John Byrnes wrote: The UIAA standards leverage many engineering standards, as you know, and will continue to leverage them. So if you want to nit-pick, complain to Warthog (you know who I mean) who is using that construction standard in the new guidelines, not me.
Can´t say I´m aware of any engineering standards The UIAA leverage but I´m sure you can give some examples.
However leverageing a standard which doesn´t cover our application (use in rock)and specifically says so;- "The anchor is to be used only for anchorages subject to static or quasi-static loading in reinforced or unreinforced normal weight concrete of strength classes C20/25 at minimum and C50/60 at most according to EN 206:2000-12." is dubious practice at best.

To selectively leverage by only picking the parts one wishes is even more dubious since we could also use "The element made of stainless steel 1.4401, 1.4404, 1.4578, 1.4571, 1.4439 or 1.4362, may be used in structures subject to dry internal conditions and also in structures subject to external atmospheric exposure (including industrial and marine environment)"
<em.
In simple terms that means Hilti say products made of 316 are expected to have an economic lifetime of 50 years in a marine environment.
mattm · · TX · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,885
jonathan knight wrote: This makes me wonder what folks think about some method of re-polishing SS to mitigate this type of corrosion and the tea stains that are so common on our SS hangers that were installed with plated Rawls. Of course, I'm just as happy to take the whole lot to the metal recycler, but I see this as an potential issue for newly installed SS hardware that we want to last.
I second the use of Barkeepers Helpers as 20kN states. I've used it on many SS hangers I've recovered with contact rust from PS 5-pieces. Works wonderfully at re-passivating and cleaning the hangers. See below picts.

Contact rust on SS hanger

Cleaned SS Hanger after Barkeepers Helper
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Fixed Hardware: Bolts & Anchors
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