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How Rap Slings came to the Gunks

cliffmama · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2009 · Points: 317

Here's some information about the new bolt anchors installed at the Gunks:
gunksclimbers.org/2015-new-…

Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616
rgold wrote:One of the participants, Chris Shulte, remarked that the Access Fund typically prepares areas for climbers, but in this case was attempting to prepare climbers for areas.
It's definitely an issue and I applaud them for trying to 'enlighten' the gym rats [target demographic of this event].

Overlaps with this discussion no one seemed to want to have or face the reality of (regarding, specifically, city/urban visitor impacts):

mountainproject.com/v/gunks…
Russ Keane · · Salt Lake · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 392

Did I miss something? What's so bad about rappelling? Strange topic.

City Dweller · · New York, NY · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 10
Kevin Heckeler wrote: Overlaps with this discussion no one seemed to want to have or face the reality of (regarding, specifically, city/urban visitor impacts): mountainproject.com/v/gunks…
Amazing that you'd resurrect a months-old thread just to highlight your earlier humiliation. And unfortunate that you're singing the same sad tune. Framing it as the reality that you - and your devotees - are only willing and able to confront. Maybe one too many times down the rabbit hole with Neo and Morpheus? A red pill fantasy?

Spray less, climb more.

:)
johnnymuir · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 20

Rgold, YOU reek of entitlement, the entitlement of the baby boomer generation that thinks all the world's problems are everyone else's, but not their own. By your logic, which seems to be "everything that came before my time is fine, but everything after my time is wrong," why are you using carabiners? The use of carabiners and gear is entitlement. Just ask Paul Preuss "Note that any use of pitons, whether as protection, or as belay or rappel anchors would be unethical, except under dire need. Even rappelling was something he objected to, something only to be used in the event of serious danger." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_…(climber) Because, ya know, those were new inventions, and we cant have new things in climbing. It must be climbed with hobnails and a hemp rope, right? Cuz that nylon stuff is just entitlement, man.

As for erosion, whats worse, mini erosion at each rap station, or the full blown highway that would be the descent trail of today? I honestly don't know, but lets not pretend that a single, unified walk off route wouldn't be nearly paved with how many feet would walk over it today.

rgold wrote: I'm not at all opposed to a rational bolting (and slinging) policy that creates good rap descent lines that can be shared by multiple routes, which do not route descending traffic down popular climbs, and which avoid creating top-rope stations for the first pitch of multipitch climbs.
This is the only thing in the whole thread that makes any sense. Because until you wrote that, one could easily assume that you are 100% opposed to rappelling in general, as well as an overall longing for your glory days, which, I am sad to inform you, are long gone. Yeah, it''d be great to go back, but we can't, we can only go forward, and as long as there are tens of thousands of people showing up to climb, I think there's more pressing issues at hand than if the cliffs should have rap stations or not. But perhaps I'm just a simple idiot. Likely, even.

I guess what Im missing is how is it ok to build roads, parking lots, charge money to climb, use chalk, etc, but not ok to put in some bolts to make said climbing go smoother? We're already altering the heck out of the cliff.
Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616
Russ Keane wrote:Did I miss something? What's so bad about rappelling? Strange topic.
At the heart of the larger discussion/implications this still remains unanswered. The discussion at hand is specific to the Gunks pros/cons though, each area having a slightly different take on the topic and local ethic.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
johnnymuir wrote:Rgold, YOU reek of entitlement, the entitlement of the baby boomer generation that thinks all the world's problems are everyone else's, but not their own.
If I don't think the profusion of rappel stations at the Gunks are a problem for me, why would I have engaged in this silliness?

johnnymuir wrote:By your logic, which seems to be "everything that came before my time is fine, but everything after my time is wrong,"
Not my "logic." Not even logic. And not something I ever claimed.

johnnymuir wrote:why are you using carabiners? The use of carabiners and gear is entitlement.
In addition to not knowing (or being able to use) logic, you also don't know what "entitlement" means.

johhnymuir wrote:Just ask Paul Preuss "Note that any use of pitons, whether as protection, or as belay or rappel anchors would be unethical, except under dire need. Even rappelling was something he objected to, something only to be used in the event of serious danger." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_…(climber) Because, ya know, those were new inventions, and we cant have new things in climbing. It must be climbed with hobnails and a hemp rope, right? Cuz that nylon stuff is just entitlement, man.
Lovely rant-within-a-rant, but it has nothing to do with anything I've said or advocated.

johnnymuir wrote:As for erosion, whats worse, mini erosion at each rap station, or the full blown highway that would be the descent trail of today?
That's almost an excellent question. If we considered how descent trails might be maintained, as has been done at the base, and if we considered how sections of such trail might be used to link dedicated rap descent lines, we might have a real question of interest.

johhnymuir wrote:I honestly don't know, but lets not pretend that a single, unified walk off route wouldn't be nearly paved with how many feet would walk over it today.
Ok, lets not pretend. I have never ever suggested it though.

rgold wrote:I'm not at all opposed to a rational bolting (and slinging) policy that creates good rap descent lines that can be shared by multiple routes, which do not route descending traffic down popular climbs, and which avoid creating top-rope stations for the first pitch of multipitch climbs.


johnnymuir wrote:This is the only thing in the whole thread that makes any sense. Because until you wrote that, one could easily assume that you are 100% opposed to rappelling in general,
Thanks for the high praise. And since it is clear even to you that I am not "100% opposed," why did you write all that previous garbage that pretends I am?

johnnymuir wrote:...as well as an overall longing for your glory days, which, I am sad to inform you, are long gone.
As it turns out, I've noticed.

johnnymuir wrote:Yeah, it''d be great to go back, but we can't, we can only go forward,


It might help if you were able to grasp that there isn't just one way to "go forward," but many different ways, and some of them might be much better for the climbing experience than others.

johnnymuir wrote:...and as long as there are tens of thousands of people showing up to climb, I think there's more pressing issues at hand than if the cliffs should have rap stations or not.
Keep settin' up and knockin' down them strawmen buddy. No one has said that the issue is whether there should be rap stations or not. You posted a quote from me that says so. Get a grip man!

And by the way, what are those "more pressing" issues?

johnnymuir wrote:But perhaps I'm just a simple idiot. Likely, even.
No comment on that, but so far you've been wrong about everything else so this isn't likely either.

Johnny, you say you are

"Just a young man on his journey. Bit hard by climbing bug, all I think of now, must, climb, forever! Eager to learn all I can about this wonderful activity."

May I gently suggest that those of us who have been doing this "wonderful activity" for (in my case) more than half a century and who are still actively engaged might have something to offer beyond a longing for long-past glory days and a vain desire to turn back the clock, and that it is possible we care about a future which we will not see but which could turn out in several different ways, not all of them so good?

Do you really think piling on insults, insinuations, and ageist cliché's promotes either a real discussion or is in any way consistent with that desire to learn all you can?
SMarsh · · NY, NY · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 37

To move forward with your ideas, RGold:

Maybe somebody could come up with a list of Gunks climbs that would be prime candidates for good rappel routes?

Prime candidates, in my mind, are one-move wonders at almost any grade that are dirty, hard to protect and not particularly popular, elegant or enjoyable.

The list would be best if it spanned the range of the cliffs from the Uberfall to the far end...and another list for the Nears.

Maybe some 5.11d (or 5.2) R or X that can't be top-roped well and only has one or two fun moves and an inelegant traverse would be a great choice of a "sacrifice"?

Suburban Roadside · · Abovetraffic on Hudson · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 2,419

Let me process the last page of posts,
for years there were a few guides(? I think) who maintained the more spectacularly exposed rap. lines. For example just off to the side of CCK direct over the roof. . . And the cabled trees, in the Nears where the ends frayed.( past the swage ) Then got duct taped and became a mess. one in particular, off the coolest old cedar tree, anyone have a picture of that ?
That was a great rap line free hanging after ten feet.

Edit ,

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

That's an example of a rappel line that comes and goes, and it goes for good reason. If guides are maintaining it---and I don't think they are (I know guides who have removed that anchor)---I'd consider that a serious problem worth taking up with the guide services, since that rappel sends descenders directly down one of the most popular pitches in the Gunks. Moreover, there is a bolted dedicated "rappel highway" maybe two hundred yards North at The Last Will Be First, so there is absolutely no conceivable argument for creating a dangerous clusterf#ck on CCK.

saxfiend · · Decatur, GA · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 4,221
johnnymuir wrote:But perhaps I'm just a simple idiot. Likely, even.
A brief moment of illumination . . .

JL
frank minunni · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined May 2011 · Points: 95
saxfiend wrote: A brief moment of illumination . . . JL
Exactly what I was thinking.

That rant was so idiotic, I got a headache reading it. And then I read his profile with his experience and accomplishments in the climbing world, combined with those idiotic pictures and thought:

Yup, he's an idiot alright...about the only thing he did get right.
Suburban Roadside · · Abovetraffic on Hudson · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 2,419
rgold wrote:That's an example of a rappel line that comes and goes, and it goes for good reason. If guides are maintaining it---and I don't think they are (I know guides who have removed that anchor)---I'd consider that a serious problem worth taking up with the guide services, since that rappel sends descenders directly down one of the most popular pitches in the Gunks. Moreover, there is a bolted dedicated "rappel highway" maybe two hundred yards North at The Last Will Be First, so there is absolutely no conceivable argument for creating a dangerous clusterf#ck on CCK.
I too removed that thing over CCK, more than once
and one time the furor that ensued was kind of stunning; guide X & cronies
demanded his #8 or 9 stopper back . . .just the one it may have been fine...still a one point rig. . .
claimed it was the climax to his clients day to be lowered from that point to the GT ledge/tree
Where he felt he could trust/see them clip in . . .
and wanting to take photos while belaying them . .,.making it worthy. .,
all while dismissing Up-Draft ( a historic climb, IMHO ) as a dirty and loose, chimney, an
awful climb that was a better lowering rap zone, the station was returned and I think 'coach'
stripped it getting me flaked again!
The point is if you have all those bolted stations . . .
you do not need a tat anchor .
If you do build a temporary station . . .remove it at the end of the day.
Gunks Jesse · · Shawangunk Township, NY · Joined May 2014 · Points: 111

Felt it wasn't worth a new topic for this. Rapping off the anchors midway between the GT and the ground beside Three Pines today and noted a guy tossing a rope from the ledge 15 feet away. Saw his rope was wrapped around the huge pine tree. Said to him that he had an interesting setup there. He said he was just rappelling and asked what was wrong with the setup. Explained that if he was leaving his rope, the he was fine, but if he wanted to pull it he would be causing damage to the tree. Likened tree to his body - how would he like to have someone pull 100' of rope around his abdomen - ouch. Suggested he traverse over to the anchors and rap from there. Said he would be rappelling from off the tree but good to know for future. Did the rap and pulled the rope. Narrative complete.

Ok -This is probably the fourth or fifth time I've had similar conversations about the same thing in the last couple months. please don't do this. Not off that beautiful old pine, or any other tree in the Gunks. Have a long term view and protect the ecology of a heavily used area. And if someone kindly says something, then take them seriously and pay attention. Would've literally added a minute to his day to do it right.

Christian Fracchia · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 80
Gunks Jesse wrote:Felt it wasn't worth a new topic for this. Rapping off the anchors midway between the GT and the ground beside Three Pines today and noted a guy tossing a rope from the ledge 15 feet away. Saw his rope was wrapped around the huge pine tree. Said to him that he had an interesting setup there. He said he was just rappelling and asked what was wrong with the setup. Explained that if he was leaving his rope, the he was fine, but if he wanted to pull it he would be causing damage to the tree. Likened tree to his body - how would he like to have someone pull 100' of rope around his abdomen - ouch. Suggested he traverse over to the anchors and rap from there. Said he would be rappelling from off the tree but good to know for future. Did the rap and pulled the rope. Narrative complete. Ok -This is probably the fourth or fifth time I've had similar conversations about the same thing in the last couple months. please don't do this. Not off that beautiful old pine, or any other tree in the Gunks. Have a long term view and protect the ecology of a heavily used area. And if someone kindly says something, then take them seriously and pay attention. Would've literally added a minute to his day to do it right.
I too witnessed something similar just the other day. I can not believe that this is happening!

I am not sure what to do besides speaking to the parties involved, but we need a solution.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Yeah, we need a solution. I've seen an example of rapping off of naked trees too. The Gunks is surrounded by major East Coast population centers and the pressure of sheer numbers keeps building, even as the traditional bond between climbers and general outdoor "ethics" declines. I think we can be certain that things will not get better by themselves.

I think that sooner or later the Preserve has to realize that climbing is no longer a minimal-impact activity practiced by a small group who can safely be left to their own devices. It hasn't been this way for a long time, but the Preserve's approach to managing climbing seems to me to be rooted in ancient history.

More recently, they seem to have concluded that problems caused by rappelling could be addressed by bolting. Incidents such as the ones just described indicate a broader problem that doesn't have a purely technological solution.

CF and GJ and others can tell folks that using rappel ropes to groove trees is a terrible idea, but they have no authority to speak for anyone other than themselves, and as we've seen, their comments may well be treated as a private opinion of no consequence.

I don't claim to have any great ideas. I think the Preserve will ultimately have to mount an effort with educational and regulatory components. If this happens, there will be a certain amount of bitching about the loss of freedoms people never had in the first place and aren't entitled to on private lands. In any case, I don't think climbers, who barely agree on anything anymore as far as I can tell, can solve this by themselves.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

How about anytime someone buys a day pass or even a season pass that they HAVE sign off to a small handful of basic rules? You cant do handouts, we all know what happens to those in cities(city slickers Kevin!).

Or more anchors...

Christian Fracchia · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 80
rgold wrote:...CF and GJ and others can tell folks that using rappel ropes to groove trees is a terrible idea, but they have no authority to speak for anyone other than themselves, and as we've seen, their comments may well be treated as a private opinion of no consequence. I don't claim to have any great ideas. I think the Preserve will ultimately have to mount an effort with educational and regulatory components ...
Unfortunately I think that you are right Rich, we have gotten to the point where regulations will need to be put in place and enforced. Since as a user group we (as climbers) can't police ourselves a rule about not putting the rope directly around a tree to rappel will have to become a preserve rule with consequences for people breaking it.

In the same way that there is a rule not allowing the chipping of holds or cutting down trees, rapping directly off of a tree without slings will need to be added to the list.
Happiegrrrl · · Gunks · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 60

How does Peterskill get it across that anchoring off Pitch Pines is verbotten? It does seem they have gotten the message across, and though of course there are still those who will do it, the general awareness is that it is not acceptable.

One idea might be to create a poster which van be placed in the Uberfall Kisosk. A "Climing PSA" sort of thing.

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
rgold wrote: In any case, I don't think climbers, who barely agree on anything anymore as far as I can tell, can solve this by themselves.
Hardin's Tragedy of the Commons... People need an authoritative rule.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northeastern States
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