How do YOU ensure your belayer is competent?

You can never actually fully ensure that your belayer is 100% competent. There is always something that could go wrong. YOUR job is to ensure that your belayer is prepared for any possibility. You can never predict a situation, so try to be ready for as much as possible
Happy climbing

Bearbreader wrote:A large group was gathered at Military Wall on September 12 playing music, possibly loud enough to make communication between climber and belayer difficult. Climber was getting into the upper knee bar on Reliquary (5.12b) when he fell near the last bolt. The climber landed on the belayer’s dog, killing it instantly. The belayer was holding the GriGri in her right hand with fingers over the cam, preventing it from locking, and said she didn’t know how it could have happened. Worse yet, she said this was the third time it has happened to her.

3rd time? Trial and error worked fine for our grandparents, but this game shouldn't be the scene of such things. Jesus. Sounds like she's about gone through a full litter of dogs at this point. Maybe since she can't belay she can teach her dogs to move back when shes belaying. Could be she's getting a commission from the orthopedic department?

In the old days people practiced belaying and took it seriously. Now days, like in this instance, they often are not bothered by such minor details as learning the craft.

csproul wrote: Try the math again with fall factor above 1 and with fall factors below 1

I concede defeat. Those are some serious screamer falls though. I'd still rather be tight, though that's a relative term, on a fall of that magnitude.

Perhaps something to read -
ukclimbing.com/articles/pag…
It is really not that difficult to figure out, without resorting to mental gymnastics or playing with oneself, within a mathematical context of course.

I like to verify my belayer's ability by flinging myself groundwards 5-10 times on a good day.

Toad wrote:While many of us are lucky and climb exclusively with skilled, trustworthy partners, the real fact of the matter is climbing is a social sport and meeting new partners is something that happens a lot;

I ensure my belayer is competent by not thinking climbing is a social sport. I don't climb with strangers or friends of friends. I climb with the same person who knows me well at off-peak times. As nice as most climbers we have met are, we generally try to avoid people.

I trusted my girlfriend to belay me once and this happened:

ukclimbing.com/articles/pag…

still married her

still married to her

David Coley wrote:I trusted my girlfriend to belay me once and this happened: ukclimbing.com/articles/pag… still married her still married to her

she's probably spiking your tea with thallium though

if at first you don't succeed...

David Coley wrote:I trusted my girlfriend to belay me once and this happened: ukclimbing.com/articles/pag… still married her still married to her

cool story. are you the guy that did the endless traverse?

Healyje wrote: I agree, hence all the dropping. Why add another dimension to the dynamic when so many folks aren't managing to master the basics.

Because it's sink or swim. If they cannot get it right they can find a different sport to participate in (golf). Why lower the standards to match the skill level of the incompetent? Why not require the incompetent to up their game to match the high standard required of belaying instead? I am not saying you need to teach them how to provide a soft catch on the very first day they are attempting to belay. But as soon as they demonstrate they know the fundamental of belaying, which can happen in a day if they pay attention, then teach the soft catch technique. Someone who has half a brain and who pays attention can learn both topics in two days (or less).

Healyje wrote:

I agree, hence all the dropping. Why add another dimension to the dynamic when so many folks aren't managing to master the basics.

I have to agree with Healyje on this one. When I started climbing (during the ice age), we didn't think about soft catches and fall factors. We tried not to fall when we climbed. We tried to be alert and make sure we held on to that rope if someone did.

Don't ask me how, but this ignorant approach somehow kept all of us alive. It's a good thing we didn't know how bad we were, otherwise none of us would have survived.

Who the fuck keeps inviting the math wizard to the rope holders anonymous meeting??

Buff Johnson wrote:Who the fuck keeps inviting the math wizard to the rope holders anonymous meeting??

Hey, Buff, I don't know if you're running over or under medicated lately, but instead of being fun and funny, as you so very often are, you're just coming off...not. I'm sorry it's so. : (

To Frank, healyje, et al, I agree both that a belayer can learn a lot of new skills/knowledge quickly, as I did and continue to do, but, just as in climbing, knowing is different than doing. The brain may well have it down perfectly, but the muscles take a lot longer to "teach". I may be pretty good at whatever you taught me on day one by day two, but every part will have to work hard at remembering and getting it done. Fine and dandy so long as nothing else happens that my brain or right hand, either, suddenly thinks is more important, or there is no critical exception to what you just taught me, which I have not encountered yet.

Buff Johnson wrote:Who the fuck keeps inviting the math wizard to the rope holders anonymous meeting??

It has nothing to do with invitations. Being wizards, we simply appear when math is called upon.

Old lady H wrote: Hey, Buff, I don't know if you're running over or under medicated lately,

It's not easy being the resident MP epigramist.

Buff, I for one, salute you!

frank minunni wrote: Don't ask me how, but this ignorant approach somehow kept all of us alive. It's a good thing we didn't know how bad we were, otherwise none of us would have survived.

Sure, but we used to climb on hemp ropes with hip belays too, and plenty of climbers made it through that era without dying. Just because you dident die doing something a long time ago does not mean it's the best practice today. Technology evolve, techniques evolve, training and knowledge evolves, and thus the sport evolves and the standard raises. Why stick with the standards of the 60s when new knowledge and technology continuously allows us to raise the bar?

Old lady H wrote:Fine and dandy so long as nothing else happens that my brain or right hand, either, suddenly thinks is more important, or there is no critical exception to what you just taught me, which I have not encountered yet.

There in lies the essence of the enchilada: "Do... or do not. There is no try."

20 kN wrote:Technology evolve, techniques evolve, training and knowledge evolves, and thus the sport evolves and the standard raises.

Well, I will say, if climbing today is 'evolved', then it's definitely been happening along with an aggressive Darwinian factor.

20 kN wrote:Why stick with the standards of the 60s when new knowledge and technology continuously allows us to raise the bar?

Hmmm. There are a lot of 'bars' involved with climbing. There's the physical movement bar, belaying bar, knowledge bar, situational awareness bar, judgment bar, risk management bar, attention bar, protection bar, etc. On the whole, I'd say it's more like raising one bar and lowering a bunch of others. And to be honest, that one bar is really only being raised across the board for a small segment of the demographic and more broadly only under certain [controlled / sport] conditions.

[ RGold - curious as to your take on 'soft' catching and the ubiquitousness of it's modern (evolved) necessity? ]

Tim Lutz wrote:yes, Healy, we all know by now that climbing today will never be but a shadow of the glorious golden years of seas of unbolted stone protected only by nuts, rigid friends, and a fine butt belay.

Oh yeah. Definitely. BITD bro, BITD. That's all I can say. Btw, did you hear that he climbed shit ON ACID MAN?!?!? I mean, how could you not have heard, he makes sure to mention it in every other thread to somehow bolster and tout his climbing ability and prowess- somehow thinking that transforms him into EVEN MORE of a hardman- as if such a supreme level even existed. It's hard to wrap your mind around the fact that such a honed, elite status of mastery is even attainable, but make no mistake, he's there. It goes like this: Bachar, Bridwell, Healy. Really, the other two are just ahead of him because Bachar was better looking and Bridwell was a snappy dresser. And it's alphabetical order so it's easy to remember.

"yeah, I did that route"

"but have you done it on ACID MAN?"

FARTHEFUCKOUT bro.

Tim Lutz wrote:...that climbing today will never be but a shadow of the glorious golden years of seas of unbolted stone protected only by nuts, rigid friends, and a fine butt belay.

I have to ask, and this may be before the "golden years", but would any of us today go climb with a hemp rope, no belay device, no MP route beta, etc. - ok, maybe just to be able to boast that you did?

We have a lot invested in technologies to keep us safe today. What did those guys and gals do before Black Diamond came to be? They made their own gear/tools and struck out on adventures unknown. No mathmatical masturbation. No download of the topo map. Just grab the chocolate, cheese, crackers, wine, and a smoke... let us climb that peak there. Did these people have a belay test or did they work things out in real world application? Seems bold to me.

Today, and with ease, we devour information available to us. We have technical charts to reference. Companies built to wade through all the science for us. This forum, to at least inform us we are going to die.

Someone came before us and used equipment that was unknown. Someone and a partner did this first without the science involved of building a rope specific for the purpose. Someone gave us the knowledge of the mountains and ruotes we travel now, and on and on...

They did this out of the adventure it gave them, just as we seek today, but there will only be one "first man on the Moon", so to speak. I would have to say that I give these people a bit of respect, if not for your own benefit of traveling along those same footsteps. I'm not saying we are not better climbers today and working things never imagined then, but I do believe much more unknown adventure was awaiting. Much invention was established, and on and on...

If you want to ensure your belayer is competent, start small. Work together on communication, intentions, and expectations! As was said up thread, being attentive and understanding the consequences involved go a long way in making a belayer I trust.

Tim Lutz wrote:yes, Healy, we all know by now that climbing today will never be but a shadow of the glorious golden years of seas of unbolted stone protected only by nuts, rigid friends, and a fine butt belay.

The point isn't that climbing then was better than climbing then - the point is essentially nothing about climbing has changed other than better ropes, cams and lighter gear. Past those three the ratings have continued to climb just as the did bitd, but what has changed is the demographic explosion brought on by gyms and sport climbs.

Again, you can claim the physical prowess that goes along with the current ratings, and, if that were the only thing that defined climbing, then you could say it's evolved. But climbing is a lot more than that. The state of belaying is entirely devolved to a random dropping generator. Protection skills overall are headed for the door, and general skills for operating around crags are likewise dubious. The bright spot in it all is even John Gill couldn't have foreseen the enormous popularity of bouldering (of course he did it without pads).

Bottom line is not that I'm great or special, it's that there's nothing special or particularly evolved about what's happening in climbing today if take your eyes off the 1% and look at whats going on with the other 99%. So long as you all keep swooning over the evolution of the few and ignore the inherent problems associated with what climbing has become en masse then the dropping and other accidents will continue unabated.