Planned Seasonal Closure of Clear Creek Canyon (formerly "Clear Creek Bolting Ban?")

Monty wrote: There is a FHRC member application, that does not imply a bolting ban... Why would they have a committee if there was a ban?????

Maybe not a ban, but FHRC for Eldo & Flatirons certainly imply bolting restrictions (much more severe than the current JeffCo norm). I unfortunately can't go. But if you know more, why not share w/ us?

Monty wrote: There is a FHRC member application, that does not imply a bolting ban... Why would they have a committee if there was a ban?????

You could certainly be correct, I don't have any inside knowledge.

But these things more often than not seem to start with a ban, to allow development of a plan, elect the committee, etc.

Then you never really know when the ban might be lifted...

Its out of our hands at this point anyway, JeffCo has almost certainly decided what they intend to do.

I can't make the meeting, working that evening, but I would implore those who attend to push as hard as possible for as little regulation as possible.

I don't think there's a problem now. I don't think they really need to do anything, to be honest.

Regardless, it will always be immensely easier for JeffCo to ADD regulation if needed, then it will ever be for climbers to get regulations REMOVED once in place, even if those regulations are burdensome, unnecessary and arbitrary.

ErikaNW wrote: Can we please stop the rumor mill? Where is this coming from? Let's not all get into a panic about unsubstantiated rumors like fees for climbing and bolting bans. Actually though, at the crag last weekend I did hear they were going to install vending machines at the base of High Wire with a ticket system for People's Choice. There will be a roped off area where you will be allowed to wait for your turn on the route. This might just be a rumor though. Seriously.

Ok Erika, please introduce yourself and explain to the rest of us as to why this meeting is not known to the general public and yet you seem to speak with certainty as to what JeffCo is not planning to do?!

As an FYI I was an original member of the Flatirons Fixed Hardware Committee serving for four years and have done my share of stewardship to the local community as opposed to simply propagating rumors.

I do not know anything about the JeffCo Climbers Alliance, but at least I applaud them for alerting the community to attend this meeting, given that I did not receive an alert from the AF and have not seen it publicized anywhere else.

Rui Ferreira wrote: Ok Erika, please introduce yourself and explain to the rest of us as to why this meeting is not known to the general public and yet you seem to speak with certainty as to what JeffCo is not planning to do?! As an FYI I was an original member of the Flatirons Fixed Hardware Committee serving for four years and have done my share of stewardship to the local community as opposed to simply propagating rumors. I do not know anything about the JeffCo Climbers Alliance, but at least I applaud them for alerting the community to attend this meeting, given that I did not receive an alert from the AF and have not seen it publicized anywhere else.

Erika is a wonderful person who like me, opted into jeffco's climbing email list in order to be informed about upcoming events, meetings etc. See the thread I started last month: http://www.mountainproject.com/v/jeffco-climbers---stay-informed/111218206

They have been posting flyers at trailheads and earth treks to inform climbers.

Requiring all routes to be approved by a fixed hardware review committee & the Jeffco Open Space is a ban on unnregulated bolting. Having climbed in Clear Creek since 1991 & on the Front Range for 43 years, I am no fan of committees. I also wrote the first guidebooks to this area & climbed with one of canyon's greatest equippers (the late Alan Nelson). I have established hundreds of routes on the Front Range & none approved by a committee. The thought makes me angry. I was on the Eldorado Fixed Hardware Review Committee in 1995-1996. I saw how politics & personalities can screw up a great sport. It is true that no routes would go in the Flatirons if there wasn't a committee. So it is absolutely necessary there. But Clear Creek is a highway canyon & there have not been the user conflicts associated with Eldorado or the Flatirons. Climbers should be allowed to self regulate at any crag in the canyon where climbing is allowed.

Rui Ferreira wrote: Ok Erika, please introduce yourself and explain to the rest of us as to why this meeting is not known to the general public and yet you seem to speak with certainty as to what JeffCo is not planning to do?! As an FYI I was an original member of the Flatirons Fixed Hardware Committee serving for four years and have done my share of stewardship to the local community as opposed to simply propagating rumors. I do not know anything about the JeffCo Climbers Alliance, but at least I applaud them for alerting the community to attend this meeting, given that I did not receive an alert from the AF and have not seen it publicized anywhere else.

Sorry, adding links from my phone seems to be problematic. As I was saying, Erika is a great person who opted into Jeffco's Climbing Email list. See the thread I started last month mountainproject.com/v/jeffc….

Jeffco put flyers up at a lot of trailheads, and even put up a flyer at Earth Treks in Golden. I tried to let folks know through MP and Facebook as well.

Here is a link to Jeffco's website where the meeting is posted jeffco.us/open-space/events…

and here is what they will be explaining:
Join us this Thursday to learn about the fixed hardware management changes that are upcoming in 2016. Learn about the updated climbing management guidelines, the permit process, application deadlines, and the 2015 climbing inventory results.
Thursday, November 19, 2015, 6-8pm, open house. American Mountaineering Center, Conference Room A, 710 10th Street, Golden, CO.

Mark Rolofson wrote:Requiring all routes to be approved by a fixed hardware review committee & the Jeffco Open Space is a ban on unnregulated bolting. Having climbed in Clear Creek since 1991 & on the Front Range for 43 years, I am no fan of committees. I also wrote the first guidebooks to this area & climbed with one of canyon's greatest equippers (the late Alan Nelson). I have established hundreds of routes on the Front Range & none approved by a committee. The thought makes me angry. I was on the Eldorado Fixed Hardware Review Committee in 1995-1996. I saw how politics & personalities can screw up a great sport. It is true that no routes would go in the Flatirons if there wasn't a committee. So it is absolutely necessary there. But Clear Creek is a highway canyon & there have not been the user conflicts associated with Eldorado or the Flatirons. Climbers should be allowed to self regulate at any crag in the canyon where climbing is allowed.

I hope this means you'll be at the meeting on Thursday:)

It sure doesn't sound like the sky is falling to me.

How many more new routes in CCC are left to be bolted? Of those, how many are so obvious that you can rap down and bolt without any planning?

Most bolting committees simply require you plan ahead and submit your plans. It seems the only things they turn down are either squeezed, trad, or dangerous.

Yes, I will be there. Wouldn't miss it. I think freedom of the hills applies to areas like Clear Creek. I don't even believe bolting regulations are 100% enforceable in this canyon. Anyone willing to bolt will probably get away with it. They just won't be able to post their areas & routes on MP. Bolting a new line always takes planning, but any experienced equipper doesn't need a committee to tell them how to bolt a line. If there were lots of inexperienced climbers putting up routes it would be a problem, but there is not.
Yes many crags are well developed & there is little room for new lines, but in the more obscure, hard to reach spots there is still undeveloped crags. There are a few easy to reach crags that I am surprised haven't been developed.
Land managers seem to follow the example of other land managers. That means they want more control to micro manage individuals & the public.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:It sure doesn't sound like the sky is falling to me. How many more new routes in CCC are left to be bolted? Of those, how many are so obvious that you can rap down and bolt without any planning? Most bolting committees simply require you plan ahead and submit your plans. It seems the only things they turn down are either squeezed, trad, or dangerous.

With all due respect HAFE, how many new routes get bolted in Eldo every year? 1? 2? And the Flatirons aren't much better.

There's been lots of great new development in CCC, which will come to a screeching halt waiting for the committee to meet and the political alliances to form and for so-and-so to stop being mad at him so that he can approve her bolt request that got shelved last year because a Native American might have walked by once....

I just don't see what the PROBLEM is here that will be solved by regulating bolting.

Do something about trash, or braided trails, or parking or something, but new routes are NOT causing anybody any trouble.

Rui Ferreira wrote: Ok Erika, please introduce yourself and explain to the rest of us as to why this meeting is not known to the general public and yet you seem to speak with certainty as to what JeffCo is not planning to do?! As an FYI I was an original member of the Flatirons Fixed Hardware Committee serving for four years and have done my share of stewardship to the local community as opposed to simply propagating rumors. I do not know anything about the JeffCo Climbers Alliance, but at least I applaud them for alerting the community to attend this meeting, given that I did not receive an alert from the AF and have not seen it publicized anywhere else.

Hi Rui - My name is Erika Nelson-Wong. I live in Golden and spend a ton of time climbing in CCC. I feel pretty strongly invested in the canyon and having continued access to our resources. While I do not have the extensive history you have (thanks for your service in the Flatirons), I do engage in stewardship and have been involved with fixed hardware replacement and trail building projects in multiple locations throughout Colorado. I wrote one of the grants that was recently funded for fixed hardware replacement in CCC through the AF/AAC initiative. I also like to think I have a sense of humor (at least I think I am hilarious - you may not agree). Is that enough of an introduction for you? I apologize if I offended you, but your original post certainly did seem to be based in rumor and not actual fact.

I was surprised to learn about the JeffCo Climbers Alliance as there have been multiple meetings between interested parties to discuss how/if we need such an organization on the Front Range and what it might look like. As Tony B. already pointed out, the tone of the OP is pretty different from those discussions, so I am very curious about who this group is and if it is the same people involved in these earlier meetings.

I am really concerned about a group presenting themselves as the representative voice for our community without ever actually engaging our community for their input!

The Thursday meeting has been pretty widely publicized as Monty pointed out both on MP as well as through JeffCo email lists and signage in the canyon and at the gyms. I am definitely not speaking with certainty as to what JeffCo is planning to do, I hope to find out more from the proverbial horse's mouth at the meeting on Thursday.

Hope that helps - maybe we will meet in person Thursday night.

You had all better hope that a Native American doesn't show up and begin making claims of cultural significance.

After all, ya know, this was a pretty popular spot for those guys every summer before the manifest destiny genocide of the 19th century. Two years ago I found an arrowhead "gasp"!

On the other hand, we always have been our own worst enemies, so good luck.

ErikaNW wrote: ... have been involved with fixed hardware replacement and trail building projects in multiple locations throughout Colorado. I wrote one of the grants that was recently funded for fixed hardware replacement in CCC through the AF/AAC initiative. .

I would like to say thanks for your contribution as well as to all involved. I would also like to thank Mark for all the time and effort and money he has invested in new routes, activism and the guide books and all the others that put up routes that I get to climb on for free. It is appreciated.

Just got an email from JeffCo with this link for information about Thursday - also has instructions on how to sign up for email notifications in future.

jeffco.us/open-space/news/2…

Woa, this is really blowing up! Wish I could come to the meeting. As I stated earlier, I've been involved with quite a few climbing management plans and LCO's I was in on the climbing management plan for the City of Rocks in Idaho, have been on the board of the Las Vegas Climbing Council and was on the board of the Flatirons Climbing Council. Plus I was in on obtaining the AAC / Access Fund grant to do some bolt replacement at High Wire Crag in Clear Creek just recently. My experiences working with land managers has been very positive. For the most part they want our input and to maintain access to climbing along with good stewardship.

It's not realistic to think we can have literally hundreds of climbers out there every week end and land managers are not going to notice. Or think that our multitudes have zero impact. It's land managers mandate and job to prevent degradation of public lands. No one likes to change from having some regulations when there were none before, but considering the volume of climbers that are out there change seems inevitable and in my opinion not necessarily a bad thing.

What ever you think of regulation, I think the worst thing to do is create an adversarial relationship at this meeting. Monty seems to be the person who has worked pretty closely with JeffCo and he seems to think they are pretty good folks. Let's not trash our relationship with them at the first meeting.

At ease comrades, "Jeffco Climber's Alliance" is nothing more than a free Mountain Project account and an email address. The purpose of this account and thread is simply to get everybody's attention (although, the FHRC application is 100% real). I have a good reason for doing this anonymously, but you'll have to connect those dots yourself.

Anyway, it was not my intention to be inflammatory. I apologize if I startled you. Prior to today there seemed to be a great deal of apathy about Thursday's meeting. We should be prepared for the worst, because it appears that at least the SECOND-worst thing that could happen is already happening (an FHRC). We need some time to discuss the best approach to dealing with a bolting ban, if it comes about, because Thursday may be our only chance to voice our displeasure.

Perhaps its semantics but in my view an FHRC is a bolting ban, in exactly the sense Mark Rolofson stated: it's a ban on unregulated bolting, and a HUGE departure from the perfectly fine status quo. An FHRC might as well be a bolting ban. Route development is a creative process. It's often impulsive and spontaneous. Sometimes that results in mistakes, but most of the time it results in a great route that would never have existed if the developer had to plod through six months of red tape just to get started. Simply look at the number of new routes that have gone up in Clear Creek over the last 10 years compared to Eldo or the Flatirons. Clear Creek is the epicenter of Front Range sport climbing in 2015 precisely because new-routing has been embraced instead of shunned. Even if you don't personally develop routes, a virtual bolting ban will have impacts on your CCC climbing experience. New routes spread climbers out, reducing crowds on classic, established areas; they motivate guidebook authors to put out new editions; they keep the crag evolving for future generations.

I don't know the best way to ensure our voices are heard, but so far, to my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong), CCC climbers have NOT been involved in the process of drafting the Climbing Management Plan, and that should be a huge red flag. If there's nothing controversial in JCOS' plan, why not share the draft before it's final? Why not share the final plan before the meeting? I understand Monty's position--he wants to be on the FHRC so he's afraid of making waves/enemies. But somebody has to be willing to ask tough questions or climbers may well be steamrolled.

Mark E Dixon wrote: There's been lots of great new development in CCC, which will come to a screeching halt waiting for the committee to meet and the political alliances to form and for so-and-so to stop being mad at him so that he can approve her bolt request that got shelved last year because an indian might have walked by once.... I just don't see what the PROBLEM is here that will be solved by regulating bolting. Do something about trash, or braided trails, or parking or something, but new routes are NOT causing anybody any trouble.

First off, the majority of those new routes have been in Clear Creek County (currently unaffected by any regulation)... Secondly, this is addressing trash, braided trails and parking because some new routes are causing severe erosion (look at the routes on the upper end of the low wire, HORRIBLE EROSION!), and potentially drawing more cars into an already crowded parking area. On a side note, Jeffco does not have anything to do with any of the parking in CCC, that is all CDOT right of way.

Monty wrote: First off, the majority of those new routes have been in Clear Creek County (currently unaffected by any regulation)...

Plenty have gone up on Wall of the 90's... Can you tell us what's your play/angle on all of this (is what OP alluded to true)? Your post you linked to basically said "Hey, we are going to tell you about FHRC" not "We want your input on whether a FHRC is necessary". I mean, where the f&*k did that all come from? That certainly have caught a lot of people by surprise.

Edit to add: I do NOT think anybody who knew about the creation/details of the FHRC and kept silent should receive community support for being part of the said committee.

True, I've even put in a route there in the last 2 years. They have been working on their climbing management plan at least since 2011 and they had always been dabbling with the idea of an FHRC. It caught me be surprise that they actually finalized something, we all know how fast paced government work is. Like I said I worked for trails, and some of my co-workers (climbers) were on the climbing management committee (an internal committee). It always seemed as if the role of an FHRC would be more guided toward trail impacts. For example, new routes at established crags would be easily approved where as new crags would involve some trail analysis/layout/construction. The idea is to get ahead of the impact, not fighting to mitigate it after it is there as is the case at nearly every climbing area in the country. I was only a seasonal so I was never involved in the conversations, I just heard secondhand, and nothing I heard stuck me as alarming.

12 to 14 years ago, I remember seeing a document by Jeffco to formulate a climbing management plan for Clear Creek Canyon. There was a public comment period and I responded. Jeffco seemed concerned about the impacts of bolts including their social impacts. This was based on climber conflicts/ bolt wars in other areas and not Clear Creek. Jeffco seemed to want to regulate bolting, but backed away from doing so. I don't know what changed. The public comment period was so long ago, it seems like Jeffco should be required to have another public comment period before finalizing climbing regulations. As far as addressing erosion & trail impacts it's great that climbers & land managers can work together. Jeffco's trail up the canyon will have more impacts to unvisited areas of the canyon, than rock climbing and more new routes.