How do YOU ensure your belayer is competent?

Chase D wrote:...hard falls because my belayer didn't have enough slack in the system.

Only assholes complain about gettng caught. In 20 yeras I have never complained about a "hard" catch. I have had some very scary soft catches. I didn't complain about those either.

better thread

Moritz B. wrote:When climbing with a new partner do yourself a favor and leave the skinny, new line at home. Bring the fat 9.8 for those days. Much easier to belay with.

Exactly. The en masse move to skinny ropes such that a 9.8 is now considered 'fat' just further contributes to the autodropping carnage.

Jake Jones wrote:Movement of the belayer is what allows for a "soft catch", not extra slack in the system.

Given the amount of droppage, it's probably best to not further compound the problem and muddy the water for beginning and intermediate climbers by even mentioning the phrase 'soft catch' - they have enough on their plate already just being able to lock that puppy up reliably.

Jake Jones wrote: Not to mention, this is not how it works. Movement of the belayer is what allows for a "soft catch", not extra slack in the system. To prove this theory, have a belayer just stand there and brace on a short fall, then have them do the same with extra slack in the system on a longer fall. Guarantee you hit harder on the longer fall. That's the way it works. FF = distance of fall/amount of rope from belayer's device to your tie in point. For every foot of slack more in the system, the climber will fall at least twice that amount. An extra 2 feet of slack means a farther fall of at least 4 feet. Further fall = higher fall factor = more impact force. Physics. The only argument that can be made for extra slack in the system is that it increases fall time and gives the belayer extra time to react appropriately. If you're attentive though, you shouldn't need that. Personally, unless I'm climbing something overhanging, I prefer not to fall any farther than I need to- less obstacles, less chance of hitting something. YMMV

Climbing friend,

did you not see that I already delivered a similar internet-wang-slap to climbing friend chase d in regarding to this statement?

Jake Jones wrote: Not to mention, this is not how it works. ...

He is right. In the following example the slacked system gernated FF of .73 while the properly maintained (no slack) system FF was .67. Leaving excess slack in the system generates a higher fall factor and risks decking your leader. Until someone can show you how to properly produce a soft catch you should stop using it.

FF = .67
20' fall 30' off the deck.

20/30 = .67

FF = .73
22' fall 30' off the deck.

22/30 = .73

Aleks Zebastian wrote: Climbing friend, did you not see that I already delivered a similar internet-wang-slap to climbing friend chase d in regarding to this statement?

I'm glad my shitty comment has opened up so much conversation on the science of belaying. Always something new to learn....

Healyje wrote: The en masse move to skinny ropes such that a 9.8 is now considered 'fat' just further contributes to the autodropping carnage.

I can't agree more. Ten years ago, 9.8 was considered relatively skinny. How times have changed(!) but the good size group of people I climb with all use 9.8 mm or fatter ropes, even the lighter weight women. Why? Because no one ever has to see or experience the scenario of a 170# guy being sport belayed by a 100# woman while using a 9.4 mm cord. And how common is that these days, esp at gyms (where the line of draws are often dead straight and offer very little friction due to "rope drag").
If the sole difference between a send and a no-send, on a typical 30m sport route, is 9.4 versus 9.9, then I would assert the margin is already far too thin for comfort and the whole situation can be upended by external factors such as wind, barking dog, other people at the crag, etc, etc.

Healyje wrote: ...ropes ...contributes to the autodropping carnage.

The Pontiff speaks again. It's the ropes fault? Really?

Healyje wrote: best to not further compound the problem and muddy the water .

Muddy the water with truth? When does that happen? Before or after you make unsubstantial claims?

Healyje wrote: Exactly. The en masse move to skinny ropes such that a 9.8 is now considered 'fat' just further contributes to the autodropping carnage. Given the amount of droppage, it's probably best to not further compound the problem and muddy the water for beginning and intermediate climbers by even mentioning the phrase 'soft catch' - they have enough on their plate already just being able to lock that puppy up reliably.

holy shit I agree.

;)

Climbing friend,

You are going to do the dying.

the modern fetish for dry treated slick skinny supple ropes are part of the problem, which many newer climbers equate with being "better" .... especially with tube devices ...

beal to their credit suggest

for their 9.7mm booster

This rope, despite not being the thinnest in the range, is still not for the beginner. Take account of the need for careful choice of belaying technique.

beal-planet.com/2014/anglai…

and for their 9.1mm joker ...

Used as single rope, this is not a rope to put in all hands, or in all belaying devices: Its thinness makes it a rope which absolutely demands an expert belayer. In effect, traditional belay devices will offer reduced braking, and some automatic belay devices may not work at all.


beal-planet.com/2014/anglai…

even with some of the assisted devices out there the DAV found that some didnt catch big falls higher impact falls too well ...

;)

Jake Jones wrote: I apologize for my cursory reading practices, climbing friend. Perhaps it is I who should be wang-slapped. Even so, it bears repeating for a few reasons: 1. The extra slack = soft catch thing is a very common misconception. 2. Knowledge of fall factor and forces that can occur in a lead fall and how to belay and react appropriately - taking into account things like distance off the ground, angle of terrain, obstacles & features, etc. should be entry-level prerequisite knowledge before you lead belay anyone. 3. Language barrier ;-)

I appreciate the clarification. I'm fairly new to climbing. Always happy to learn something new. Please no wang slapping!

Chase D wrote: I'm glad my shitty comment has opened up so much conversation on the science of belaying. Always something new to learn....

In the service of expanded knowledge, adding slack to the system will make the fall factor closer to 1 than it would have been without the slack. So slack increases fall factors that are less than one but decreases fall factors that are greater than one. Consequently, extra slack could give rise to a "softer" catch---but not in a single-pitch environment.

All that said, Chase D isn't necessarily wrong about there being too little slack in his presumably fall factor < 1 system, because the issue might not be the fall factor but rather the impact from penduluming into the wall. It might be worth a higher fall factor if the leader can be allowed to drop lower on an overhanging pitch, so that the wall that threatens an ankle-breaking impact is further away. The leader would probably experience this as a softer catch even though the fall factor was higher.

I think the effects of the so-called "soft catch" are often confounded with the fact that extra slack may keep the falling leader further away from an overhanging wall, so that it becomes unclear which effect is most responsible for a positive end result.

Chase D wrote: I appreciate the clarification. I'm fairly new to climbing. Always happy to learn something new. Please no wang slapping!

That's one of best attitudes I've read coming from a new climber. I would wager more than a couple bucks that you will make a great partner, hell maybe a mentor some day.

Regarding rope diameter, I also have noticed a standard treated rope works much better for trad and sport than a dry coated one. I use a 10.2mm for rock. I had 10.5 but no one wanted to carry it. I use 9.1mm for ice but no one's falling. If they are it's back to a 10.2..

Michelle Angelfish wrote:I don't have much exposure to grigris- but this is a fun strategy with atcs. I was taught to go through the preliminary checks and then when told by the belayer, on belay, stick out your right hand for a handshake. If they know the drill they'll make an awkward move to shake with their left- but most people will let go of the rope to shake your hand. It's a light hearted moment to emphasize wanting an attentive belay. I've noticed that with climbers stuck in ego, they get a little miffed from being "tricked", and it's those people I worry about more- vs someone who 'gets' why you would do this in the first place.

Michelle, please don't take this as an attack on you or whoever taught you this strategy to test the belayer, but I think it's really stupid. How does shaking hands with a climber while they are perfectly safe have any correlation with belaying them while they're climbing? I know the idea is show the belayer to never let go of the brake strand, but use that to test a belayer while the climber is still on the ground? That's pretty ridiculous. Now if you actually climb up and get the first bolt clipped, then turn-around to shake your belayer's hand, that would be totally cool.

bearbreeder wrote:the ...some automatic belay devices may not work at all...

When someone uses a first gen Gri Gri with a skinny rope it's not the ropes fault, or the Gri Gri. When somebody gets decked because some idiot taught them that slack in the system reduces fall factor it's again not the device that is to blame. Suggesting that we should use outdated heavy equipment or be to blame for the deaths of others is ridiculous. As is deciding what truths we should share with new climbers. Uneducated people make intuitive decisions in emergency situations. Unfortunately often times they do the exact opposite of what is needed. Only knowledge and understanding can fix this. That combined with the person actually practicing and believing it. I like light ropes and auto blocks for alpine/trad. I like beefy lines with tube belays for cragging. I have good reasons for not trusting new people with more "advanced" gear but it's not the gears fault when and if it goes badly it's mine for trusting them. I still cringe every time somebody pulls out a Gri Gri but I don't blame it. I just rappel if I don't know the guy.

P.S.

adding slack to a multi pitch belay will increase the FF. For every foot of slack given the fall is increased by two feet. For example in a 40 foot fall with 30 feet of rope out the FF is 1.33. Add one foot of slack to the system. The fall is increased to 42 feet the lenght of rope is 31 feet and the factor is 1.35. Closer to 2.

Jeremy in Inyokern wrote:For every foot of slack given the fall is increased by two feet.

How does that work exactly? Please explain the math. Does every foot of extra slack somehow raise the climber one foot as well?

Jeremy in Inyokern wrote: P.S. adding slack to a multi pitch belay will increase the FF. For every foot of slack given the fall is increased by two feet. For example in a 40 foot fall with 30 feet of rope out the FF is 1.33. Add one foot of slack to the system. The fall is increased to 42 feet the lenght of rope is 31 feet and the factor is 1.35. Closer to 2.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here, but (re)read RGold's post above. For FF less than 1, increasing the slack will increase the FF. For FF greater than 1, increasing slack will decrease the FF. Adding a foot of slack does not result in a 2ft longer fall.

But the climber is still falling from the same place so it only adds 1 foot plus rope stretch to the fall.

Jake Jones wrote: Isn't adding a foot of slack the same as the climber climbing one foot higher above the last piece? If a climber is 3 feet past the last piece, they'll fall minimum 6 feet. If they're 4 feet above, then the fall is minimum 8 feet, right? If that is the case, wouldn't 1 foot of slack = 2 feet of falling? Or is my brain just fucking this up?

No, he falls one foot farther, but he doesn't start one foot higher.

Assume there is 22 feet of rope out, the top piece is 20 feet high, and the climber is 2 feet above that piece. If he falls, he falls 4 feet.

Now add one foot of slack, so 23 feet of rope is out. The climber falls 2 feet to the anchor and 3 feet past the anchor for a total fall of 5 feet.

Ignoring stretch, of course.

Jeremy in Inyokern wrote: When someone uses a first gen Gri Gri with a skinny rope it's not the ropes fault, or the Gri Gri. When somebody gets decked because some idiot taught them that slack in the system reduces fall factor it's again not the device that is to blame. Suggesting that we should use outdated heavy equipment or be to blame for the deaths of others is ridiculous. As is deciding what truths we should share with new climbers. Uneducated people make intuitive decisions in emergency situations. Unfortunately often times they do the exact opposite of what is needed. Only knowledge and understanding can fix this. That combined with the person actually practicing and believing it. I like light ropes and auto blocks for alpine/trad. I like beefy lines with tube belays for cragging. I have good reasons for not trusting new people with more "advanced" gear but it's not the gears fault when and if it goes badly it's mine for trusting them. I still cringe every time somebody pulls out a Gri Gri but I don't blame it. I just rappel if I don't know the guy. P.S. adding slack to a multi pitch belay will increase the FF. For every foot of slack given the fall is increased by two feet. For example in a 40 foot fall with 30 feet of rope out the FF is 1.33. Add one foot of slack to the system. The fall is increased to 42 feet the lenght of rope is 31 feet and the factor is 1.35. Closer to 2.

the DAV IDed issues with the smart and various juls on 8.9mm ropes .... thats within the recommended diameter range, but at the bottom of it



jim titt has IDed similar issues in the past on MP

unless yr doing alpine or climbing VERY hard sport ... or possibly linking a shietload of pitches together on long multis ...

theres no real need for a slippery dry treated thin fancy rope

its a shame that most folks dont tell beginners that it actually reduces their "safety" ... beal as i posted, to their credit, says that pretty explicitely

;)