The Bolting End-Game

The community doesn't think they're paying for the bolts in climbing gyms and by and large really don't think about how the bolts got there or who paid for them outdoors. And hell, they already paid for a grigri, what more do you want. The burden of climbing 'development' dependent on fixed pro is likely to remain that of those enamored with the role of developer. And when that is community-driven one can assume they're getting something out of the bargain.

Derek DeBruin wrote: Replacement of glue-ins can be achieved by grinding the hanger off and then core-drilling the hole, facilitating its re-use. I'm told this is relatively easy with the right tools but have not done so myself.

EDITED: Something stupid written before ample coffee

John Byrnes wrote: There have only been "lab" tests of this method but it seems to work very well.

I have used in situ and it works it is just an intense process...

MARK - Woops mis-read that... ya I'd take the core drilling over the torch!

I'd still like to see this successful core drill people talk about.

I've tried to use a core drill on wedge bolts and although it can be done, it doesn't seem to be practical. A core bit deep enough to drill out a glue in will have to be custom made and they don't last very long. $100 for a core drill that might last two bolts is too expensive. You'll have to carry something to cut off the loop on the end of the anchor. A diamond core drill also requires a water supply which is a lot of trouble when you are not on the ground.

Please, somebody show me a successful system because I'd like to have one.

Dan Merrick wrote:Please, somebody show me a successful system because I'd like to have one.

I have given up on placing glues (except in situations where bolts might be tampered with) and gone with placing 3/8" SS 5 pieces. Right now I'm buying 4" bolts and drilling the holes the length of the bit ~6". In theory this should mean the holes can be used many times over before they will have to be re drilled to 1/2", and then used many many times over again. There will be room to pound the cones down into the hole and use 4" again or just drop a 1/4" to the 3.75" length bolt. This makes the most sense to me... only PITA is removing the 5 piece innards or people messing with your bolts because they are not glue-ins.

Who can speak to the European development scene? Being in Europe, it seems reasonable that the UIAA would present its case from a European context. It's my understanding that fixed hardware in Europe is generally maintained by national bodies that are well-funded. Hence, there is no reason not to go with absolutely bomber options with 50 year life spans as cost is less prohibitive.

Even with LCOs, AF, ASCA, etc., this is still very much not the case in the U.S. We just finished a local rebolting project that came out of the pockets of 5 or 6 local climbers doing some community service plus the generosity of a gym. We used legacy bolts and glue-ins and it was easy to rack up a hefty bill when buying bolts.

Morgan Patterson wrote: I have given up on placing glues (except in situations where bolts might be tampered with) and gone with placing 3/8" SS 5 pieces. Right now I'm buying 4" bolts and drilling the holes the length of the bit ~6". In theory this should mean the holes can be used many times over before they will have to be re drilled to 1/2", and then used many many times over again. There will be room to pound the cones down into the hole and use 4" again or just drop a 1/4" to the 3.75" length bolt. This makes the most sense to me... only PITA is removing the 5 piece innards or people messing with your bolts because they are not glue-ins.

I've removed a number of these 5 piece and it seems to me that the biggest PITA is in removing the sleeve. Once that is out the cone comes out pretty easy with only a couple funks.

John Byrnes wrote: It Depends (tm). The lifespan of any steel bolt depends on the rock type, annual rainfall, mean temperatures and the size, type of steel and design (glue-in or expansion). Personally, I wouldn't place any non-stainless bolts in Colorado, and I know that the AF and ASCA agree.

John,

I agree that SS bolts should be used and that is exactly what I use when rebolting(thanks ASCA and AF!). The point about including testing information about grade 5 carbon steel bolts is that they last much longer than most people think. These, for the most part, aren't ticking time bombs that need to be replaced ASAP, especially in Colorado and California.

Dan Merrick wrote:I'd still like to see this successful core drill people talk about. I've tried to use a core drill on wedge bolts and although it can be done, it doesn't seem to be practical. A core bit deep enough to drill out a glue in will have to be custom made and they don't last very long. $100 for a core drill that might last two bolts is too expensive. You'll have to carry something to cut off the loop on the end of the anchor. A diamond core drill also requires a water supply which is a lot of trouble when you are not on the ground. Please, somebody show me a successful system because I'd like to have one.

Jim Taylor has pretty extensive experience removing wedge bolts with a core drill. Start it at about 14 minutes if you want to just see the core drill. The core drilling itself takes about 60 seconds in hard nuttal sandstone for a 3/8'' wedge with a nice drill.
youtube.com/watch?v=i9I9fYs…

Derek DeBruin wrote:...fixed hardware in Europe is generally maintained by national bodies that are well-funded...

European climbing is subsidized with taxes?

Jeremy in Inyokern wrote: European climbing is subsidized with taxes?

At least in some locales, yes. I have a friend who lived in France a few years and he reports that bolts were maintained on tax payer dollars. However, I can't confirm this. For those locations without tax funding, alpine clubs are generally well-equipped in many European countries and I imagine can take on the task. Regardless, it can certainly create a different context for addressing bolting.

Derek DeBruin wrote:Who can speak to the European development scene? Being in Europe, it seems reasonable that the UIAA would present its case from a European context. It's my understanding that fixed hardware in Europe is generally maintained by national bodies that are well-funded. Hence, there is no reason not to go with absolutely bomber options with 50 year life spans as cost is less prohibitive. Even with LCOs, AF, ASCA, etc., this is still very much not the case in the U.S. We just finished a local rebolting project that came out of the pockets of 5 or 6 local climbers doing some community service plus the generosity of a gym. We used legacy bolts and glue-ins and it was easy to rack up a hefty bill when buying bolts.

About the only country that has a reasonably well funded system is Germany through the local clubs, the rest scratch around for money like the rest of the world. Getting manpower is even more of a problem though given the huge amount of bolted climbing and the limited number of people willing to perform a thankless task, generally at their own expense. Other sports require a certain amount of involvement from it´s participants but climbing isn´t organised that way as generally the club system is either weak or non-existent.

Derek DeBruin wrote: At least in some locales, yes. I have a friend who lived in France a few years and he reports that bolts were maintained on tax payer dollars. However, I can't confirm this. For those locations without tax funding, alpine clubs are generally well-equipped in many European countries and I imagine can take on the task. Regardless, it can certainly create a different context for addressing bolting.

There are a few areas where bolting is funded by the local commune as climbing is an important tourist revenue generator, Arco is probably the biggest and there are a few notable ones in France. Some of the national federations are relatively wealthy and fund some bolting activity, mainly the Austrians, Swiss and Germans.
The EU have funded some new development primarily for tourism development projects, Kalymnos is one.

bus driver wrote:Over the life of the route, joe public will likely use the equipment 100x for each time the fa climbs the route and gets any value back. Call me an asshole, but I think its fair for the fa to put in hardware to cover 20 years and the broader climbing community can cover the cost to keep the worthwhile routes maintained into eternity. It cost $15-20 for one day of climbing in a gym for joe public. How much should they be paying to keep routes maintained for their day of outdoor climbing?The reality of the situation is that cheap hardware will last plenty long for the fa to get the send and have their kicks on the route. Like it or not, cost and rock hardness are the determining factors in first ascensionists' hardware choices.

Last batch of hangers I bought were $300 delivered to my door for 100 of those expensive little puppies. Add the stainless bolts and either chain or musseys and you have $5 per hole. We bolt most routes with an eye to the "current concept of safe" so that adds more money to each climb. At the Emeralds and Bowman Lake there are four people doing most of the work and they are funding this out of their own pockets. Forget time, effort and commitment, that's a chunk of change. People talk about donating but only one guy has stepped up and that was for twenty bucks.

Enough of that rant, I like putting up new routes, I do it for myself but others get to enjoy them so that's great.

I totally agree with "busdriver". Fixed pro needs to be evaluated and repaired by the community at large. And I can tell you from experience, 3/8 inch bolts are solid for many years. I've pulled and replaced bolts I put in around 1990, some were stainless hangers and carbon bolts. They were all bomber and I wouldn't have problem one falling on them. Maybe it's location, maybe it's type of rock, but in areas where i've developed, the bolts are solid some 25 years later.

Is it better to have bolts with a known life span of 50 years? Sure, but I don't think that's possible in the real world.

I've been to Thailand. Coastal areas, all bets are off.

Brad

Jim Titt wrote: There are a few areas where bolting is funded by the local commune as climbing is an important tourist revenue generator, Arco is probably the biggest and there are a few notable ones in France. Some of the national federations are relatively wealthy and fund some bolting activity, mainly the Austrians, Swiss and Germans. The EU have funded some new development primarily for tourism development projects, Kalymnos is one.

Jim, thanks for all the clarification. Do you think that cultural difference has any impact on the UIAA recommendations for bolting, or have I over-estimated that difference? Just curious.

DrRockso-

Thanks for the video link. Looks like he has the core bit working. When I have tried, the bit drifts off the bolt and eventually slices through the bolt making the lower hole oversize and pretty much useless. The rock he is working with looks soft and part of the trouble I have had may be due to working with hard granite and the bolt is easier for the bit to cut than the rock. Also, since power tools are not permitted in National Parks (Yosemite) and in wilderness areas, this won't help rebolting efforts in these areas.

Is there any non destructive testing methods for carbon steel bolts ? Ie could you run a current and map it to see how much mass is left. This could be compared to known specs. Good bolts could be left for future testing and corroded bolts could be pulled. Now, anything with surface rust is assumed junk but people seem to agree that surface corrosion does not equal weakness.

bus driver-
While it is true that many rusty bolts still have a lot of strength in sheer, rust can completely defeat the wedging ability of a stud bolt. I've pulled some out with a tiny amount of axial pull. Once the collar can't move it's basically a nail with very unpredictable holding power.

rockvoyager wrote: I totally agree with "busdriver". Fixed pro needs to be evaluated and repaired by the community at large. And I can tell you from experience, 3/8 inch bolts are solid for many years. I've pulled and replaced bolts I put in around 1990, some were stainless hangers and carbon bolts. They were all bomber and I wouldn't have problem one falling on them. Maybe it's location, maybe it's type of rock, but in areas where i've developed, the bolts are solid some 25 years later. Is it better to have bolts with a known life span of 50 years? Sure, but I don't think that's possible in the real world. I've been to Thailand. Coastal areas, all bets are off. Brad

While I've had similar results as you using carbon bolts and stainless hangers, I don't think the next 10 years will be nearly as kind as the first 20. To some and to me at the beginning two decades seemed like forever but now I'm spending much of my time going back to those climbs I bolted in the 90's and having to replace them. At my own cost and labor, again! So in the short term I was happy to save some bucks but now I'm spending the money I should have spent in the beginning. Which pales in comparison to the effort of removing the old rusted bolts.

To say just leave it to the next generation to upgrade the bolts is pretty selfish and narrow minded. Your average Joe isn't out there changing out bolts and they shouldn't be. It's other developers who have the skill and tools for the job, that will be replacing those skanky old bolts. Truth be told if rather spend my time and money on new lines. Plus at some point the climbs will look like swiss cheese. Another reason to use 5 piece bolts. It need be, they are still much easier to remove than a stud. Which usually just gets snapped off or pounds in and a new hole is drilled.

I don't need any lab tests to know that if my carbon bolts lasted 20 years with maybe another 10 to spare, a good stainless steel anchor will out last that by double. Minimum.

My experience is with the northeast and like you said it really depends on the location what materials we use.

rocknice2 wrote: I don't need any lab tests to know that if my carbon bolts lasted 20 years with maybe another 10 to spare, a good stainless steel anchor will out last that by double. Minimum. My experience is with the northeast and like you said it really depends on the location what materials we use.

Well, in 2005-6 I replaced 74 anchors out here in the PNW on basalt and in 58 of the 74 both bolts were spinners and the bolts from the 90's were by far in the worst shape of the lot when compared to earlier bolts.