The Erik Sloan ethics thread

vincent L. wrote:It's fine T Roper, I understand you don't see that chopping branches that generations of climbers dealt with, and saw fit to walk by without cutting, is a big deal. But surely you must be able to comprehend that there are climbers out there that don't agree with that attitude: that just because something can be made easier, or more convenient, it should. Whether it's branches or extra bolts in the stone.

branches grow do they not?

T Roper wrote: Wow, so now trail maintenance?

Unsanctioned, illegal destruction of natural resources in the park isn't "maintenance".

Back edit:

I'm not implying that Erik Sloan performed the "limbing" incidents described below, and have seen no evidence that he did. If the park found the perp, the person's name should be in public record. I'm only including it here to illustrate the degree of limbing that people are concerned about.

A lot of climbers have been complaining about the “limbing” of trees along approach trails to popular cliffs in Yosemite. Though probably not a new idea, there has been a flurry of activity in the last couple of years. This is illegal, against the wilderness ethic, draws negative attention to climbers, and is upsetting to many people.

Limbing definition: The brutal practice of cutting off branches from live trees just so they won’t touch humans in an offensive manner.

Last year someone sawed off several branches on the primary trail to the base of The Nose, significantly widening the trail. Tiny branches, and larger ones up to 6 inches in diameter and 15+ feet long were cut off.
A little later in the year it looked like the same thing had been done up along the base of the left side (Salathe Wall), especially near the start of Lurking Fear etc. The branches chopped off were left as conspicuously dried up/sawn off branches lining the side of the trail.

Now this year, the final bit of the approach to The Nose has seen even more limbing. One section of the trail is 15-20 feet wide, and numerous huge branches were chopped off and laying around. Then someone tried to burn the still green wood in an enormous bonfire pit. It appeared that someone had sawn off some branches in areas adjacent to the trail, perhaps to create staging areas in the shade??? The secondary approach trail to the base of The Nose, further right was also limbed. Other areas where recent limbing has occurred are the traverse ledge on Leaning Tower and the approach to Mt. Watkins.

Although the person or persons doing this work probably believed they were doing a public service, they were in fact offending what seems to be a solid majority of the community of users hiking in these areas. They were also committing a federal crime: 36 CFR 2.1 Preservation of natural, cultural and archeological resources. (1) Possessing, destroying, injuring, defacing, removing, digging, or disturbing from its natural state: (ii) Plants or the parts or products thereof.

Sometimes trailcrews maintain portions of trail using a saw on official and maintained trails through the wilderness, but it is usually done as minimally as possible, and in a way that it is unnoticeable or as unnoticeable as possible.

Approach trails to climbing areas are NOT official trails, they are use trails only, and generally speaking no maintenance is allowed. We have had several volunteer trail days over the years with climbers helping out to maintain small relatively invisible use trails.

Furthermore, many people go climbing for an adventure in nature, and they expect to have, and enjoy having a few branches slap across their face (or their partners face behind them). Some folks even enjoy an occasional full blown bushwack, or even if they don’t enjoy it, recognize it as part of a wilderness climbing experience (let’s not get into the discussion, again, of whether the walls of Yosemite Valley are REAL wilderness…that’s the goal, whether you personally believe it is being achieved or not.)

However, the reality of the situation is that there ARE trails to climbing areas. Recognizing this, the NPS has approved the maintenance of some of these trails in order to prevent trail-braiding (multiple trails to the same destination), erosion, etc. If you’d like to help we have had several volunteer trail days over the years with climbers helping out to maintain small relatively invisible use trails. The work done is to be as minimal as possible using the least amount of tools necessary, and no tools that are illegal in wilderness. No cuts have been approved. So, even though we can now do some rockwork to stabilize and protect the best trail to a cliff, and rehab unnecessary braided trails, we cannot cut branches off trees!!!

Thanks for reading, and please post up your opinions on this topic…surely this group will have something to say!

Yosemite Climbing Rangers (Jesse and Jake)
( supertopo.com/climbing/thre…)

vincent L. wrote: Maybe illegal? Refer to Code of Federal Regulations, 36 CFR 2.1. The following is prohibited: "Possessing, destroying, injuring, defacing, removing, digging, or disturbing from its natural state" , included in that are..... (ii) "Plants or the parts or products thereof." I'm not sure how you misinterpret that in a National Park and take a hack saw to trees at the base of El Capitan...

It's a bit of a different scenario if he's brushing trails:

"Clearing width ... four feet is the average standard"
"The trail should be cleared to a height of 8 feet."

nps.gov/noco/learn/manageme…

Bill C. wrote:Which routes specifically did he supposedly retro-bolt? Asside from the mid-way anchor, I haven't seen anyone give a list of the routes he supposedly altered. I have seen plenty of people say something along the lines of, "several really important famous/well known people told me that Erik retro-bolted a bunch of routes", but no-one is saying WHICH routes. I'm with Jon Hartman; give some evidence or let the witch hunt die.

Exhibit A with photos!

bigwalls.com/forum2/index.p…

Explain this sh*t show.

Climbing history doesn't need more Wings of Steel style bullying now does it.

JNE wrote:If you really had a problem and didn't want to protest his book, just go chop all 2,000 bolts as you free climb said routes and then hand them to him. I mean that is the "Ethics" of dealing with it in the valley? So let the history books repeat themself. Personally, I am super stoked about the 2000+ bolts he has replaced. If it wasn't him, it would be someone else. As is, I personally commend his services there. As for yourself PosiDave, am I reading correctly when I say it appears you don't so much care about retrobolting (unless it is used to justify guiding services of some sort) as much as unsafe retrobolting?

I don't mind bolts is what I am saying. If you are going to retrobolt a choosy crag, I am not going to go on the Internet and bash your GYM that profits off of said bolts. I just won't support your gym (like you not supporting Erik's book) I agree with your personal reasons

I am saying other than one mid anchor no one has proven Erik has done anything. It is just rumors. So bashing him with no proof is sort of fucked up and no one has proven it. Ivan Greene was caught on video chipping, so fuck that guy.

But I could just as easy start a thread and Say you bolts something or chipped Homeon the range or some nonsense for some underlying reasons others don't know (congrats on the send Btw)

Tom Stryker wrote:Dave while I don't agree with any of the retrobolting at Stover, it's not fair to say there were no bolts prior. There were a handful of routes, all of which went with just one bolt, all placed on lead with one exception. I'd agree the situation is out of control there. You did the Phone Booth solo yes? Woot! Regarding Sloane being a nice guy or doing re-bolting as community service, sorry but that doesn't get him a free pass to alter the game. Noobs practicing aid anywhere in the first 40 feet is a recipe for disaster, and a bad idea.

Stover has had bolts & I don't condone the retro bolting, but I think it is beyond wild that some of those bolts (3+ years ago were poorly installed)

I am defending Erik based on meeting him and my good friend (Eriks old partner) who said people have been accusing him of this for along time and saying it was B.S. And that it was started based off other issues.

I don't condone bashing anyone on a public forum without actual evidence. Say he didn't retrobolt anything and you ruin the work he has put into the book and discredited the fair bolts he installed.

2 pages deep and still no reply from the Erik " Slim Shady " Sloan. Who said him self he would love to discuss ethics with people. Even states he would make a blog on his web site to discuss this.

He responds to his climbing book, photos and app.. avoiding the topics that are really the core of the issue
Not much of a Slim Shady appreciation response

Guess he's not much on his word is he?

issues:
Erik replaces rivets with ⅜ inch bolts.
If the hook placement was don't by someone taller then 5'7", Erik will drill a ⅜ inch bolt instead of using other methods(balls)/hooks/cheat sticks/hammer extensions.
He loads belays with excessive ½ inch bolts instead of a 1:1 count.
He also adds ⅜ - ½ inch bolts mid pitch when ever he feels the need
He also destroys trails for what he deems necessary. The only reason NPS never busted Erik Sloan was because they never actually watched him do the deed.

K Weber wrote:Climbing history doesn't need more Wings of Steel style bullying now does it.

There's nothing whatsoever comparable between the two. The Wings team were doing an FA, they weren't retrobolting and they've been some of the stronger voices getting after Erik over his retrobolting (of which there is no question at all).

So other than Ten Days After, The Great Slab Route, and Book of Revelation, are there any other routes that were altered? And aside from the added anchor bolts, and that variation (if you could even call it that) on on the Great Slab, what other bolts did he add? I'm just trying to understand if anyone knows the number of bolts that were added.

Also, does anyone know the total number of bolts he fixed/replaced? It sounds like potentially over 2000? Even if he added 40 bolts out of poor judgement in the last 6 years, that still would only account for 1-2% of his total work in the valley. (I wish I could say that I had a 1% fuckup rating in ANYTHING that I do).

Even JNE, who seems to be one of the more vocal people on this thread against Erik comments, "Personally, I am super stoked about the 2000+ bolts he has replaced. If it wasn't him, it would be someone else. As is, I personally commend his services there".

If it is only 3 routes affected in a giant valley with a massive history of chipping, chopping, drilling, etc. then why not just fix the screw ups, chock it up to poor judgement, and leave the torches at home?

I have no dog in this fight; I just hate to see someone who I think is genuinely trying to help get flamed for a few isolated fuckups when 99% of the climbing community wont ever touch a drill or buy some quick-links for their local crag.

If I am completely off with my assumptions feel free to point them out, (as I'm sure several will), but if you are going to at least try to give actual information about the routes affected and the number and location of bolts added. Otherwise this thread is going to be a circle-jerk of anger, ego, and confusion for people like me who don't live in camp 4 and don't get to hear about this around the campfire.

A fuck up is one thing, deliberately retro-bolting and otherwise altering routes to the point where the ASCA feels compelled to formally retract their support from him is another. Do you really think the ASCA made that call based on unsubstantiated rumors or hearsay?

If it is only 3 routes affected in a giant valley with a massive history of chipping, chopping, drilling, etc. then why not just fix the screw ups, chock it up to poor judgement, and leave the torches at home?

Agree 100%. I speak up because it seems that getting Erik to simply recognize and respond in a real and meaningful way to the real criticisms of real people about real actions that took place in reality is apparently asking too much. Some argument about actually having true community support would go a long way toward helping his cause, especially since it would be a shame to let someone with 2000+ bolts worth of experience get the community chop. Last resort option in my opinion, but one worth pursuing if nothing else works.

Worth pointing out too is that I did not see it the same way that anyone at all in any way whatsoever supported Erik's retrobolting. Plenty of apparent acquaintances said he was a really nice guy to interact with, but absolutely no one stands up for the retrobolting.

FWIW, If Erik had just owned up, then followed up with real action, or does so in the future, I (and I imagine many others as well) will change my opinion regarding buying his book.

Also, PosiDave, thanks regarding HOTR, and I would recommend at least letting the gym in question in your particular situation know that what they are doing is not looked upon highly in the community, especially when done with such a great disregard for safety. If done right, it could improve instead of hurt community relations. If they blow you off and act like it is NBD, and it turns into one, there is always the internet. Yes, land managers look for any reason to not have the public using any given chunk of land: it then has the potential to become a financial capital asset. As a result, these things unfortunately do matter, and we need to be able to police ourselves.

1% error rate, this is more than acceptable for medicine (ie life and death!)

This comment sums up the argument perfectly, he is saving lives, action speaks louder than words. Everyone else sit back in your arm chairs and shut the fuck up.

IMO There are far too many junky death bolts in NorCal. This guy should be praised!

CrimperE6 wrote:... he is saving lives, action speaks louder than words. Everyone else sit back in your arm chairs and shut the fuck up. IMO There are far too many junky death bolts in NorCal. This guy should be praised!

Plenty of folks in this thread put up routes and replace junk hardware without pissing off entire communities. We don't need people to tell us what is best for us. Not all climbs are going to be safe enough for all climbers. The FA should be respected unless it was aid then we should strive to free it. That’s the way of things we don’t establish bolt ladders on free climbs and call it a public service or bolt replacement project. Say or do something stupid and the net will have its way with you. I'm just glad I'm not dumb enough to do anything this stupid.

J in I,

1. I don't think any "entire communities" are pissed off.
2. We get it: you don't need anyone telling you what's best.
3. Thanks for sharing "the way of things;" now we know what's best.

Cheers,

T Roper wrote: hearsay is popular these days on the internet, I mean gosh, the guys on Supertaco said it right? no list yet.

No? THis post was just a few above:

limpingcrab wrote:He increased the bolt count on Ten Days After, The Great Slab Route, and Book of Revelation. Not that I've seen them or am all worked up about it, he just said he did on supertopo, that's all.

Never mind Erik's on ST post whereas he stated that he added anchors midpitch to an existing climb and would go back and add them again if they are chopped.

Erik is defending his additions of bolts, not denying them.

Tony B wrote: No? THis post was just a few above: Never mind Erik's on ST post whereas he stated that he added anchors midpitch to an existing climb and would go back and add them again if they are chopped. Erik is defending his additions of bolts, not denying them.

Love the wording "increased the bolt count".

I saw these mentioned already, I was thinking he had a ton more to his name than that, IMO not enough for a witch hunt. I've passed mid pitch anchors more times in my life than I can even begin to remember.

So this is enough to demonize the guy in your eyes? really?

Maybe Erik would like to provide a PDF file listing the anchors and bolts he has placed of the 2000

If you have that kind of count down you also have it written somewhere to prove/provide the community if asked

MT head wrote:Maybe Erik would like to provide a PDF file listing the anchors and bolts he has placed of the 2000 If you have that kind of count down you also have it written somewhere to prove/provide the community if asked

Detailed PDF of potentially 2000 bolts placed over the last 15 or so years?

^ This is the best presentation of a logical fallacy that I have ever seen. Bravo.