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Retrobolting in Yosemite - By a Yosemite guidebook author

Doug S · · W Pa · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 55

People often argue ethics and the style of the first ascensionist in climbing and the topic is meaningful to everyone, I think. The point is valid. Allowing for reasonable progress is also valid I think. To illustrate this, imagine if people got upset if you use modern trad gear and dynamic nylon ropes in lieu of pitons and hemp because of FA style considerations. My point is that FA ethics are really only a romantic notion and carry only so much real weight. The weight we decide to give them.

When you get guys who carry progress passed everyone's accepted ethical notions, then you may understand what the real issue is: When you are developing an area, let's say especially an area as important as Yosemite, you should carry the appropriate respect and fear as of one who is working under a watchful eye, because you are. There is established legal authority and ultimately, it is all that matters. It doesn't care about the climbing community's ethics, and it can shut you down based on its own ethics if you ignore them.

Access, not ethics, is the most important issue and there are laws governing it. I think a good leader respects that fact rather than provokes it.

josh holmes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 215
Jake Jones wrote:Wow, a thread with a pissing contest inside the thread about another pissing contest. It's like pissing contest-ception.
LOL!
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
ShireSmitty wrote: No, he didn't. Those weren't the words of ES, they were the words of somebody else. It's not constructive to put words in someone's mouth, it only adds to the bashing. If I get motivated enough I will dig back through the other thread and grab the quote from the person who actually said it.
You are correct. I conflated 2 posts. That being the case, I'm deleting the assertion. If it's important to you to leave this, that's fair enough. My mistake, so I'll own it. I'm taking down the original statement though, as I stand corrected on that point and no everyone reads the entire thread.
Thanks for pointing out my mistake. There is plenty to hang the guy on without blaming him for another's words.
K Weber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 15

Can we get a list of people that have power bolted in Yosemite?

A few that have been busted and a few that haven't.

josh holmes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 215

sorry Tony.
a bit on your profile fit his description
midwest climber
now living on the front range
climbs more trad than rad
ect…

again, apologies all around for the mix up

FWIW, i'll probably buy both books when they come out

Matt Wilson · · Vermont, USA · Joined May 2010 · Points: 316

Trad climbing is neither

SirTobyThe3rd M · · Salt Lake City · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 2,100
"Can we get a list of people that have power bolted in Yosemite"

Yes, of course! Do you want the list emailed to you or posted here in the forum?!
Glowering · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 16
But is bolt-chopping the answer? Is that just going to incite him further?

Yes. If retrobolts are allowed to stay the problem will only get worse. This is not just about Sloan and two bolts. This is about precedent.

There are two things to do about retrobolting:

1. Remove the retrobolts
2. Discuss it in person/print/online like here. Education helps most people understand whey retrobolting is wrong.

Adding retrobolts is not progress. It's regression. If someone did it without those bolts, modern climber with better gear should be able to do it too. If not, as always, find another climb that fits your needs.

It may incite him further, but the upper hand is always with the bolt removers because it doesn't cost anything to remove bolts. It's less than $10 for two bolts and hangers, but that adds up if they keep getting removed.

And again it's more about respecting future climbers who do the route, by not removing a challenge and scarring the rock, than about any FA "ownership" of the route.
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65

Anyone who feels retrobolting is no big deal......

Suppose there's a classic A5 pitch of rivets, beaks, rurps, and hooks above a boulder strewn ledge. Would replacing, say, 3 of the aging rivets with 3/8" chicken bolts, reducing the pitch to A3, be "no big deal"?

What about adding a couple of bolts to the Bachar-Yerian?

J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
Marc801 wrote:Anyone who feels retrobolting is no big deal...... Suppose there's a classic A5 pitch of rivets, beaks, rurps, and hooks above a boulder strewn ledge. Would replacing, say, 3 of the aging rivets with 3/8" chicken bolts, reducing the pitch to A3, be "no big deal"? What about adding a couple of bolts to the Bachar-Yerian?
You're gonna use a rivet pitch as your "Gold Standard" for judging behavior? Really?

"Hey Ma, look!!! I used the crappiest fixed gear that I could so that the gear was sufficient for my ascent but will inevitably become jingus trash that needs replacing for many subsequent ascents. And the best part? I can cry like a baby when someone replaces the gear on my manufactured dangerous pitch with gear that will last longer than two seasons instead of doing the manly thing and replacing the rivet with another rivet so that the whole tired shebang can start over!! Yay for covering the wall in rivet holes!! I am ethically superior!!!"

Seriously man, here is what a lot of people think about that kind of aid....

youtube.com/watch?v=boQHYBh…

And what about the BY? Don't bother bringing that old tired example up, because even the wheeniest of the wheeny sporto gym rats wouldn't add a bolt to that route, so its a moot point. Now I'm not advocating retrobolts, but seriously, pick better examples next time!!
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northern California
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