JOSHUA TREE

simplyput wrote: Oh great, so figuring out a trip to Jtree can be as much fun as Hueco. Really it's simple: bitch at and/or attempt to educate nitwits, climb obscure routes or don't try to fool yourself that weekends in the late fall/winter are a good time to be alone unless you're willing to go out into the Wonderland (the thru hike to Indian Cove is dope) Getting a permit to climb just seems completely antithetical to the very reason why so many of us climb in the first place. If you don't like the hordes, don't want to impart proper practices on idiots and don't want to be policed, go midweek or climb elsewhere.

I'm more concerned about it from a preservation of the area perspective. Yes, I don't like the crowds, but when I choose to go during those times I understand that that's what I'll be dealing with. My main issue is with uneducated folk are damaging these areas (trash, trampling vegetation, etc). Just forgetting about it and going somewhere else doesn't really fix the problem.

polloloco wrote: I'm more concerned about it from a preservation of the area perspective. Yes, I don't like the crowds, but when I choose to go during those times I understand that that's what I'll be dealing with. My main issue is with uneducated folk are damaging these areas (trash, trampling vegetation, etc). Just forgetting about it and going somewhere else doesn't really fix the problem.

Right and how do permits change this? In a park that already only allows camping in established spots there will still be the same number of people in the campsites using the same poor practices. Creating a permit process really would only alleviate day use congestion (if it even did this) and would most likely cause more people to seek out less populated times like midweek thereby creating any even greater strain on the quiet times.
Pardon me if I seem reactionary, but anytime the art of climbing is threatened by bureaucratic process I get a bit twitchy.
What I do see as being helpful is continuing the dialogue with the uninformed (even if it means being an asshole) and expecting rangers to curtail unsustainable behavior instead of worrying about pot smoking dirtbags.

simplyput...... good post.

No way in hell should we ever go for any ranger interference with a permit system...

Verbal shaming of idiots is the best way.

If you see some bogus shit going down, do not hesitate to call out a foul.

And spend some time picking up trash, in the campgrounds, at the base of the crags and in the middle of the desert....its our park, expecting someone else to do it is quite lame.

Is there anywhere that requires a permit to climb?

grog m wrote:Hey guys and gals, it is our jobs as the stewards of the mountains to educate others! This makes me angry too but we its important as more people wish to explore these amazing places we teach them good habits and explain why their actions are bad. I doubt these noobs wanted to harm a Joshua tree they are just ignorant and its probably their first hammock placement. Nothing goes farther than patiently explaining to someone why their actions are bad. It certainly takes courage to go up to a group and explain to them why they should reconsider their actions. You may be percieved as an ass, but if you educate you know that they will reconsider next time or the time after. Even throwing in a little history about the area. The wrong way (I'm not saying you did it incorrectly just an example): Hey you *^%$& noobs, ur gonna f that tree up get real! Don't you know anything!? (no they don't know anything, they're noobs) The right way: Hi my name is Grog (intro yourself to make it personal). Where are you from? I'm glad you came to Jtree, isn't it beautiful? The expectation here is that you don't touch Joshua trees, they are part of the fragile desert ecosystem and get permanatly damaged easily. (Then engage them) Why did you put it up? Or will you please take it down? If you do it correctly, the noobs will pass it on and explain it to the next group they see!

+1 very good plan of action. Agree 100%.

Simplyput: Not reactionary at all. You make very good points, and personally I don't like the permit process either. In the end, I'm a newcomer to the SoCal area and really don't have much say; but this is an issue I see pretty much everywhere in the country. I'll work on being more vocal when I see stuff to try to do my part. Maybe we need more rangers too? (which inevitably leads to more fees...)

Guy: I agree that calling people out is probably the most effective. But... are there enough people out there to do the calling out? Good point to emphasize cleaning up the park. I try to every time I visit, but I could probably put more effort into it too.

I was just reading somewhere that Millenials are the largest "generation" and also happen to be the most interested in the outdoors and fitness (myself included). As the popularity of climbing and outdoor pursuits skyrockets, this will only become a larger issue. The education rate for this kind of stuff is pretty poor, and I don't see it getting much better. I do like Subaru's recent outdoor campaign that promotes LNT. It'd be nice to see climbing gyms and other outdoor companies focus on that as well.

Good post from everyone. I kind had many of the same private observations/grumbles over the last 10 yrs. or so. Before (I started climbing there in the late 70s when I was 13), up until the early 90s or so, if you went someplace, it might have been crowded in places, but it was no more than that. No trash, no pruning, gang banging (don't really like that expression but hey) was maybe three or four people at most. It was managable and their was respect for the "monument".

Sadly, lots of people tend to view it no different than the gym. It's just a playground to them and they appear to have no sense of their impact. Even if they do, they shrug their shoulders and deny it or blame other people. Sadly, the genie is not going back into the bottle, but we can educate those who willing to listen. Even if they appear not to get it at first, give it time to sink in. If they love the area, they'll be willing to protect it.

I'm glad to see such overwhelming support and love of the Park!

I recently saw a comment on the Holcomb page stating, "If you're not picking up other people's trash you are the problem". Initially I thought this quite harsh until I realized we've all been the problem at some point. Be it trash unintentionally dropped, a novice we didn't teach to shit in the woods, or late night partying/noise in a campsite.

If I'm not out there cleaning up someone else's mess, then no one is out there cleaning up mine. End result: our pristine wilderness gets trashed.

Here are some actionable items we can all take:

• Pick Up Trash: Grab a few extra Target grocery bags (they're nice and thick) and lash them to the outside of your back. Pick up those bits of climbing tape, rope end markers, bottle caps, etc and pack them out. Latex gloves and doggie poop bags are a good option for those really nasty bits.
• Say Something: Looking back I regret the times I said nothing. Even when my words fell on deaf ears, at least I tried. Fixed lines (eg: hammocks) off vegetation, top-roping through anchors, dragging pads over vegetation, trail braiding, not packing out TP: if you see these actions, say something. If there's a large group, poll for a show of hands on what's appropriate. Often everyone is thinking the same thing, but no one is speaking up.
• Volunteer: We'd all rather be climbing, but clean up events are only a couple hours long, usually come with pretty awesome schwag, and are a great way to meet new people. I'm trying to find info on a JT clean up day this year and will post a thread if there is one.
• Spearhead Discussion: Bring up Leave No Trace ethics around the campfire. This is a fantastic opportunity to educate without singling anyone out. Each ecosystem is different and you'll probably learn something new yourself.

Last year JTNP visitation reported 1.6 million visitors, up from 1.4 with anticipation of 2 million visitors this year. We also passed 200,000 CAMPERS which is really something considering what we're working with.

Visitation is up through the NPS and JT is no exception. Being ignorant of proper outdoor etiquette is not unique to climbers either. Townies, hikers, young adults, euros..... people of all sorts can have bad behavior and poor practices. Education is key.

Is litter a giant wind up for me? Anyone who knows me can tell you this is true. I am not adverse to confronting idiots who litter, send garbage down our rivers, burn fires in stupid places, cut down live trees, etc.

Will I keep it up, sure will. Now.... will I go to a ranger? HIGHLY UNLIKELY!!!!! Please do not report to the rangers, try and handle to the best of your ability. Polite is nice, being an asshole sometimes works too but as a general rule drawing attention to climber or non-climber deficiencies is just not a good idea.

Brian, thanks for approaching them. Wishful thinking is they just didn't know, ignorant which is beyond me in the first place, but we've all been dopes somewhere. Perhaps in reflection they'll understand and appreciate the consult.

Susan... thanks for posting.

Found stuffed into a handy crack, at the top of a climb with nice bolts for TR anchors

Back in my day of dirt bagging, this would have been valuable for use as TP or Rolling Papers.

I know its probably the worst thing you could do and would not make anything better but.. That'd be funny if you just walked up to them without saying a word and cut the hammock loose from the tree while she's sitting in it
(Sorry im an asshole)

Guy Keesee wrote:Susan... thanks for posting. Found stuffed into a handy crack, at the top of a climb with nice bolts for TR anchors Back in my day of dirt bagging, this would have been valuable for use as TP or Rolling Papers.

well fuck

Anyone heading to J-Tree from the Bay for New Year's and have a seat in their car? I pack light!

Cheers,
Tyler