Gear for mixed routes?

frank minunni wrote: Nonsense. Mixed for trad/bolts has been used since the mid 80s. I've never seen anyone get confused when I use the term mixed regarding gear. You're splitting hairs. I've never heard a route referred to as T/S. Case in point: Has anyone on this thread misinterpreted what the OP was referring to?

yeah you're probably right. But you never know how dumb some people can be.

Jesse I don't use them but did the OP say anything about horizontals? I may have missed that part. Otherwise having that range would be good if you were trying to limit the amount of trad gear you have to buy. It's like two and a half cams for the price of one and a half, right?

Jon Frisby wrote: yeah you're probably right. But you never know how dumb some people can be.

I couldn't agree more. And the worst part is, you just can't cure stupid.

As Einstein said (paraphrasing here) Only two things are infinite; The universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe.

Thanks for all the great recommendations! We live in Colorado and do most of our climbing in areas within an hour drive of denver (estes park, boulder canyon, clear creek canyon, occasionally shelf rd or voyager). Like a few of you have already clarified, we're looking have the minimum we can get away with. We'd try to do these routes every once in awhile and if it turned out we really loved them we'd definitely get more gear!

frank minunni wrote: Good call on the tricams. I forgot to mention them. A lot of people don't like them but I love them. They fit in odd places, work great in horizontals and can be placed like a stopper.

I'm a devout Tricam user as well. But Tricams are arguably the most "fiddley" bit of gear there is. I shudder to think of a sport climber trying to use these without rather extensive practice. Especially if they treat them like a bolt: "I got gear in, now I can take the whipper".

While the OP may be reluctant to pony up for a full set of cams, I do think cams are among the most forgiving pieces in the hands of a gear newb, at least in the medium and larger sizes. The recent rash of "My X4 exploded" threads on MP.com provides evidence that small cams rally aren't foolproof in inexperienced hands.

Ultimately, as others have said, it comes down to the particular route. There are "Bolts and RPs" mixed routes up north (I'm thinking Poko) that I would never send a "90% sport" climber up.

shoo wrote:This question is extremely specific to the area, and even specific climb, you are doing. There is no such thing as a "standard" mixed rack to bring on a route, so you are pretty much looking at getting a light, but full trad rack to be able to climb most mixed you come across. A light, but full rack in 2015 consists roughly of the following: A single set of nuts A single set of medium - large cams (BD C4 sizes #.5/#.4 to #2/#3) A single set of small cams, as small as you want to go (sizes specific to the brand, but roughly 3-5 cams smaller than your smallest C4 size) However, that doesn't mean you have to haul the whole set up with you on every route. With some luck and gear beta, you might know what you need to bring with you.

Since Kate is in Denver this is the exact rack I would probably get (is is actually the exact rack I purchased for mixed and light trad climbing earlier this year).

Nuts 4-13, C4 .5-3, X4 .1-.4 with biners was about $650 on steep and cheap last time they had everything 25% off. Wait for a sale or you can try to buy used.

Gunkiemike wrote: I'm a devout Tricam user as well. But Tricams are arguably the most "fiddley" bit of gear there is. I shudder to think of a sport climber trying to use these without rather extensive practice. Especially if they treat them like a bolt: "I got gear in, now I can take the whipper". While the OP may be reluctant to pony up for a full set of cams, I do think cams are among the most forgiving pieces in the hands of a gear newb, at least in the medium and larger sizes. The recent rash of "My X4 exploded" threads on MP.com provides evidence that small cams rally aren't foolproof in inexperienced hands. Ultimately, as others have said, it comes down to the particular route. There are "Bolts and RPs" mixed routes up north (I'm thinking Poko) that I would never send a "90% sport" climber up.

All good points Mike. Although my philosophy has always been, learn how to use passive gear and then go the cams. Not sure if it applies here though. I think the bottom line really is that unless you know what they're actually looking at and how much they want to spend, it's a shot in the dark.

How are things in the Gunks these days anyway? Even though I don't live there anymore, I will always see myself as a Gunkie...Ergo the plates on my car here in Vegas.

Kate Caron wrote:We're 90% sport climbers. Every once in awhile we come upon a mixed route that looks fun but requires a couple pieces of gear. We don't have any and we don't really ever plan on getting into full on trad climbing. What pieces would you include in your rack if you were building one solely for the purpose of being able to do mixed routes?

A stick clip.

Thanks for the clarifications on the link cams guys! Sounds like I'm part of the group that misunderstands them. Disregard prior comments; however, if there is a greater than normal learning curve, would they really be a good choice for the occasional Sport/Trad user?

Co-Opt This...

Gear for mixed routes could include; fruit boots, ice tools with handles that allow for the climber to hang upside down (Grivel Tech Machine, Camp X-Dreams, Petzl Nomics etc.) 6-10 sport draws (which it sounds like 90% of you already have, but make sure they are wire gates to avoid freezing) a few Tricams .5, 1.0 x 2, 1.5 and 2.0, s set of DMM Brass Offset Nuts #2-#6 (go for doubles in these) DMM Alloy Offsets #7-#11, 2-4 10cm Stubby ice screws, 2-4 13cm ice screws, 2-4 16cm ice screws, 1 x 22cm ice screw (this is used for building a v-threads in ice, as a bail screw in soft rock such as limestone or sandstone... just be sure to drill a starter hole of no greater that 1/2 inch diameter and at least 1/2 inch longer than the 22cm....BTW, I have used 16cm's before in a pinch to bail but they are kinda sketchy....the 22cm can also function like a non-adjustable Big Bro in granite cracks...just be sure to clip the hanger in the downward position aligned with the anticipated direction of load) Metolius Curves hexes sixes #5-#10, ice clippers for your ice screws, 4-6 alpine/trad length draws with wire gate biners for your trad placements, a v-thread tool that is also a nut tool (need to save weight..I think Pika Mountaineering is now making one), I would possibly get some cams...C4's in the smaller range, .4, .5, .75, 1 and 2 but due to the icy conditions of mixed climbing you may or may not be able to use them with any kind of confidence...ice filled cracks abound thus your passive pieces would be the better call in that scenario...if you are getting into mixed climbing I would suggest a stiff training program since the season is upon us here in the Western USA...ARC training in the gym will help you with managing the pump and doing lots of pull-ups and lock offs on your tools should really help (as with all training programs be sure to warm up properly) Additional training for mixed climbing can include placing your hands in freezing cold water for 10-20 minuets at a time (I like to use blocks of ice and not cubed since it seems to last longer...if you can't find any ice to train the hands with use the ARC Training to develop the wicked pump in your hands and forearms and then have someone slam a car door repeatedly on your hands...this will simulate the pain of mixed climbing in super icy and cold conditions...BTW...if you don't have a car available, exterior doors on most houses or condos will work but skip the interior door...they are too light and won't produce the same effect. Another training tool that we have found invaluable is actually using cubed or crushed ice (I mentioned before that I didn't like using it for training the hands but it is totally acceptable for training the eye/face reactions time and the cold weather induced head-aches associated with mixed climbing) Essentially this is the ice bucket challenge on a smaller scale that what was being seen on social media in the past several years. See warning here forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/… Anyhow, having a training partner throw ice cold water in your face with chunks and slivers of ice in it is excellent training for mixed climbing as well as traditional ice climbing. A distance of no more that 1-5 feet way is preferred (start further away if this is your first season of mixed climbing...those with several seasons of experience can start out at the 3 foot distance and work closer as the season progresses..5-10 small buckets should be enough for one training session regardless of your distance...we usually do this twice a week...just don't overdo it! Belayer training is also key to a successful season of mixed climbing..they must know how to dodge falling rock, ice and dropped gear...we usually train them year round by having them belay on newly bolted routes that are still chossy...raining hell down on a belayer in any type of climbing, mixed or otherwise is just part of the game...the better they can dodge and reposition the rope and keep their mouths shut as well as take photos for Instagram, the better you will be able to climb on your red-point burn. Hope that clarifies what you need for successful mixed climbing. PM me with any questions and/or training opportunities. 😻

set of cams and nuts. I can't remember a single time placing a tri-cam or hex in a CO mix route. I would skip these.

Gunks Jesse wrote:Thanks for the clarifications on the link cams guys! Sounds like I'm part of the group that misunderstands them. Disregard prior comments; however, if there is a greater than normal learning curve, would they really be a good choice for the occasional Sport/Trad user?

they arent beginner cams ...

which is part of the problem ... beginners think that it means you dont need to select the proper size piece

and those same folks dont understand how gear behaves as a system, notably how cams walk and proper rope paths

this leads to the cams shifting into poor spots and breaking ... the same way we hear about those "broken x4" cams ...

link cams are great for

- in between sizes

- when you have to just get SOMETHING in because yr pumped silly ... this works best on straight parallel cracks

- bringing up less gear on multi ... for example i carry the yellow link cam alot, sure its heavier than the yellow camalot but it covers the green/red/yellow range .... so on climbs where i know i wont need many hand sized pieces i bring that single piece

they are specialty piece ...

a beginner should just get a set of BD/DMM/WC nuts and a single rack of camalots from small to big blue

the C4s are VERY forgiving cams with a good range and passive ratings

;)

Hmm you might honestly start with mid size cams #1-2, then expand out ( .75, .5, 3 in that order). Ordinarily, I'd say build up a passive rack first...but then that would mean:

1) extendable alpine draws/runners
2) learning direction of pull, equalization, etc
3) bringing up more gear for a comparable amount of range.

With cams, you could continue using regular sport draws most of the time, and I highly doubt that you would need doubles for a mixed route, considering half the placements will be bolts...

When I'm climbing a sport route that might need a placement or two, or heading off on something that looks like sport -- but I can't see the whole route, my gear of choice is tri-cams. I find they are the most flexible choice for the weight and cost -- they can be placed passively like a nut, or actively more like a cam. The problem, though, is that they are generally a bit trickier to place (and a lot trickier to clean -- but you could likely do that on the way down, so it wouldn't matter as much).

But, if something is bolted with the occasional gear placement (rather than a trad climb, with the occasional bolt to protect really run-out bits), usually the placements will be fairly obvious placements that are easy to do, in an obvious crack. (If the placements were shallow, tricky, unusually small or unusually large, there'd probably be a bolt.) This does suggest mid-range cams are also a good choice. Except, again, why do you just have an occasional placement? Probably the climb crosses one (or more) horizontal cracks, and horizontals are another place where tri-cams excel.

So, I'd be thinking a few tri-cams; probably: black, pink, red, brown, blue.

Alec32 wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's quite right. Yes, the LinkCam failures have occurred when the stem isn't facing the anticipated direction of fall. But the problem has occurred in placements in vertical cracks where the stem is facing straight out so the cam is rotated down and torsional force is applied. In a horizontal crack, although the stem bends over the lip, the force on the cam actually is pulling almost straight in line with the stem (assuming you fall in line with the stem and not off to the side). So, the problem with bad LinkCam placements shouldn't have anything to do with horizontal cracks, right? It's just about poor placement orientation in vertical cracks (or, I suppose poor placement orientation in any cracks). Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but that was my understanding. See this thread that discusses almost this precise issue: supertopo.com/climbers-foru…

I had a Link Cam blow up in a great placement that only took body weight... I don't trust them at all.

Gunks Jesse wrote:Thanks for the clarifications on the link cams guys! Sounds like I'm part of the group that misunderstands them. Disregard prior comments; however, if there is a greater than normal learning curve, would they really be a good choice for the occasional Sport/Trad user?

If by "occasional sport/trad user" you mean someone without extensive experience and skill at placing and evaluating gear, then no, they are not a good choice.

Link cams have extremely little room for error, and are extraordinarily hard (and maybe impossible) to predict and evaluate, even amongst those that are very skilled and knowledgable. They are very much a piece of specialty gear, and don't belong anywhere near beginner hands.

After reading your thread I looked up a handful of routes listed as T, S in my area (trad/sport)

Every one of them had the specific cam you need. Idk about your area but take a look at some routes you want to climb. I bet if you compiled a list of 15-20 routes you will find that there are certain pieces that will open the most doors.

I could be wrong on the cams most useful in your area but I would guess you want to get BD .5 and .75 and always bring them with you. Get smaller and bigger BD cams when / if you need them. Or 4/5 if you like Metolius. Stoppers would probably be useful but don't waste your time / money on other gear.

If you want the flexibility to not have to know before hand you will have to:
1) Buy / carry more gear
2) Run it out
3) Use a really long extendable stick clip
4) Find another route

Kate Caron wrote:Thanks for all the great recommendations! We live in Colorado and do most of our climbing in areas within an hour drive of denver (estes park, boulder canyon, clear creek canyon, occasionally shelf rd or voyager). Like a few of you have already clarified, we're looking have the minimum we can get away with. We'd try to do these routes every once in awhile and if it turned out we really loved them we'd definitely get more gear!

Kate, there is a lot of noise in this thread. Mike C is the only one who has given you worthwhile advice. I hope to add to that.

In my experience for the areas you're talking about, there are exceedingly few mixed routes. Most exist in the St. Vrain canyons. I don't count Eldo since it's trad with a few bolts in it.

Often times you can just run it out a little and get to the next bolt. I can't suggest that even though it's my mode of action.

The "mixed" routes in your corridor are so rare that you really don't have to plan for them at all. Bring your set of draws and avoid them. If you do want to climb mixed routes, most need only a few pieces. Those pieces tend to be green, yellow, and red aliens or a nut ranged from BD 4 up to BD 10.

There are exceptions and with research, you can usually find this info prior to leaving the ground.

I can't promise you anything though, a mixed route could need a piece from 00 up to a big bro. It might need rp's or only take ballnuts. All that is unlikely though. If you want to cover your bases you need everything.

Speaking from experience in your exact area though, relax.

KrisFiore wrote: I think the idea was what are the most essential pieces without buying a full set of cams...

It's entirely specific to the route. One route might require a few large cams, another might require a few small RPs, another might require a full rack. There is no one answer.