How do YOU ensure your belayer is competent?

Medic741 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHdqjjyeTtg

I didn't know gym climbers wore helmets. Neat!

So my girlfriend and I were climbing at a recreational rock-climbing gym today. She was belaying me up what would normally have been an easy route for me, but we had been there for 4 hours already and my arms were burned out.
I was about 15 feet up the wall and I just couldn't hang anymore and I let go. I fell all the way to the floor to find my girlfriend looking just as amazed as I was that she wasn't belaying me.
She felt horrible that she let me fall, and knows it was a serious mistake. But "sorry" just doesn't make me feel better. She hurt my trust. I don't know if I can climb with her anymore.
Anyone else out there been dropped by someone you love?

https://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/3sdzs4/my_girlfriend_dropped_me_today/

Serious, Bearbreader?! You're having the worst luck it seems. How many times have you been dropped?! Take care.

Or, not you?

Also from the same link as my prev post

From personal experience. I once dropped my bf now husband at the climbing gym... Probably a good 10m.
So yes it was totally my fault, I had been climbing for over a year regularly so it wasn't because I was new. I admit my brain failed and my reaction for some reason was to let go. I can't explain it, it just happened. I felt terrible.
Anyways, luckily he wasn't hurt and we proceeded to climb again, this time with a grigri. Yes he still brings up this story and I have since only used the grigri with him when he is leading as he is almost double my weight. Also I don't think I am a bad belayer because I have picky climbing friends who would yell at me.
So I totally don't think you should ditch your gf. She feels bad enough already and will never forget it. Buy her a grigri, especially if you are a lot heavier.
Also, people used to belaying similar weight of lighter people don't realize how tiring it is to hold someone with an atc and how much force they generate. My husband always complains how he is slowly dropping when I am using the atc or grigri and he is hangdogging... Well he is heavy and a 100lb person can only counterweight a 180lb person for only so far. But he always complains :( . But now I am just ranting .
So while it's no excuse to drop someone. If you are being belayed by someone who is a lot lighter than you. Maybe it's your own partial responsibility as well to ensure that you are using an auto locking device.

If you outweigh your belayer, use a "dog draw" when hangdogging or working a route, indoors or out. At a minimum, it is a matter of courtesy. And, no, Gri Gri is not an auto lock device. It is a lock assist device. Instructions here - petzl.com/en/Sport/Belaying…

Edit to add: The above comments are not directed at you, bb. More for the general public.

This thread makes me all warm and fuzzy for my Silent Partner.

" i check to see if they have their belay certification card on their harness"

Hmm. For me a belay cert card on the harness is a red flag!

Seriously though, I think Bearbreeder is bringing some valuable insight here. Really sorry to hear about your injury...hopefully we can all learn from it.

I agree with him regarding the importance of adding any and all levels of security available. Gri Gris offer another layer. Some people get offended when asked to belay with a Gri Gri, but as explained above....sh*t happens. Even with experienced folks.

I guess reddit/climbing is the new RC.com

"I dropped my husband."

half the responses

"No problem, you're still the bestest person in the whole wide world. It'll only make you better and better, you're the greatest!!!"

Alex Bury wrote:" i check to see if they have their belay certification card on their harness" Hmm. For me a belay cert card on the harness is a red flag! Seriously though, I think Bearbreeder is bringing some valuable insight here. Really sorry to hear about your injury...hopefully we can all learn from it. I agree with him regarding the importance of adding any and all levels of security available. Gri Gris offer another layer. Some people get offended when asked to belay with a Gri Gri, but as explained above....sh*t happens. Even with experienced folks.

cert card = yellow flag
go-pro = red flag

T340 wrote:This thread makes me all warm and fuzzy for my Silent Partner.

I showed someone the other day how to TR solo ...

She was a bit afraid of the system at first ...

Then i said

"Youre on TWO independant devices on TWO independant strands ... Yr likely safer than with a modern gym belayer whos fbooking or staring at lulu clad hawtays while belaying u"

After that it was just fine

;)

Eric Engberg wrote: cert card = yellow flag go-pro = red flag

+1 about Go Pro equipped climber/belayer.

bearbreeder wrote: Yr likely safer than with a modern gym belayer whos fbooking or staring at lulu clad hawtays while belaying u ;)

Sadly, only too true!

I got dropped by a [previous] significant other in a gym on an ATC. Luckily it was at the end of a workout, and we were doing some TR laps to burn out. I fell about 30 feet. I was also lucky that the rope was double wrapped around a ~6" diameter pipe and that the floor was padded.

The problem with a significant other, regardless of gender, is that the more times you've seen someone naked, the dumber they think you are. ANY belay advice I would give would be ignored regardless of the 10 years or more of experience at the time.

Some real examples:
"Hey, I outweigh you by 70 pounds, so you might want to clip into the ground anchor."
"Nah, I got it."

"Holding the brake end of the rope immediately next to the device limits how much leverage and braking force you can apply, down by your hip is easier."
"Nah, I got it."

"I will probably fall on this route at the fourth clip, could you please stand closer to the wall?"
(about 10 feet from the wall)
"Nah, I got it."
(I fell and ended up below the SigO, who was at the first clip and bashed their big toe on the wall and complained about it)

"Hey, you need to traverse toward the anchor, you are 3 routes over from the anchor. If you keep going up, you could take a bad pendulum fall!
(proceeding to the top of the wall 15' horizontal from the anchor)
"Nah, I got it."

And then I got dropped... the SigO burned their hand while trying to ease me over a roof, and let go. After I got up, the SigO was more concerned with their rope burned hand (I guess should have tried holding the brake hand by the hip!) I would only allow that person to belay me with a grigri after that (I'll take braking assist over letting go entirely).

It has been a dozen years, and I guess after writing this I realize how much it still bugs me. It totally killed my confidence for a while, I wouldn't climb anything where I might fall. My climbing partners diminished to two people I really trusted. That relationship ended later that year, although they were much more humble about advice after that.

I guess the only way to really ensure your belayer is competent is to develop trust over time, or have a third person back them up on the brake end. I used to accept a belay from just about any warm body on the end of the rope, now that number is down to very few people.

Stay safe, Aleks Zebastion for president, Amerika needs more neck and back meat.

T340 wrote:This thread makes me all warm and fuzzy for my Silent Partner.

Haha Nice. You've gotta love the irony.

TBlom wrote:I used to accept a belay from just about any warm body on the end of the rope, now that number is down to very few people.

It might be non PC and all to say it but good for you. I've been this way the past eight years or so.

@S.Neoh

yeah, politically correct doesn't really matter if you get paralyzed or worse...

After climbing thousands of days over 23 years, you kind of start to feel like one day your ticket might get punched. Gotta be picky!

TBlom wrote:I got dropped by a [previous] significant other in a gym on an ATC. Luckily it was at the end of a workout, and we were doing some TR laps to burn out. I fell about 30 feet. I was also lucky that the rope was double wrapped around a ~6" diameter pipe and that the floor was padded. The problem with a significant other, regardless of gender, is that the more times you've seen someone naked, the dumber they think you are. ANY belay advice I would give would be ignored regardless of the 10 years or more of experience at the time. Some real examples: "Hey, I outweigh you by 70 pounds, so you might want to clip into the ground anchor." "Nah, I got it." "Holding the brake end of the rope immediately next to the device limits how much leverage and braking force you can apply, down by your hip is easier." "Nah, I got it." "I will probably fall on this route at the fourth clip, could you please stand closer to the wall?" (about 10 feet from the wall) "Nah, I got it." (I fell and ended up below the SigO, who was at the first clip and bashed their big toe on the wall and complained about it) "Hey, you need to traverse toward the anchor, you are 3 routes over from the anchor. If you keep going up, you could take a bad pendulum fall! (proceeding to the top of the wall 15' horizontal from the anchor) "Nah, I got it." And then I got dropped... the SigO burned their hand while trying to ease me over a roof, and let go. After I got up, the SigO was more concerned with their rope burned hand (I guess should have tried holding the brake hand by the hip!) I would only allow that person to belay me with a grigri after that (I'll take braking assist over letting go entirely). It has been a dozen years, and I guess after writing this I realize how much it still bugs me. It totally killed my confidence for a while, I wouldn't climb anything where I might fall. My climbing partners diminished to two people I really trusted. That relationship ended later that year, although they were much more humble about advice after that. I guess the only way to really ensure your belayer is competent is to develop trust over time, or have a third person back them up on the brake end. I used to accept a belay from just about any warm body on the end of the rope, now that number is down to very few people. Stay safe, Aleks Zebastion for president, Amerika needs more neck and back meat.

Perfect story for this thread Tevis, well stated. As to the OP, there is no way to ensure someone you just met is competent. There is always some degree of risk we assume when climbing with someone new. My advice is to minimize putting yourself in that situation. In 35 years of climbing I bet I've only had to do it about a dozen times. All depends on how often you road trip solo I guess.

TBlom wrote:After climbing thousands of days over 23 years, you kind of start to feel like one day your ticket might get punched. Gotta be picky!

For me, 25 years and counting altho no thousands of days logged. As I grow older, less mentally sharp and physically weaker (too little neck and back meat!), I decided that I need to reduce risk wherever and whenever I can, without totally killing the joy I get from the sport.

I can usually tell by their demeanor, because I've been on their level. I know how intimidating it can be. If they seem quiet, hesitant, tense, I need to adjust the way I climb. Not in a way where with an experienced belayer--there's no question that they'll respect the #1 thing, to keep me off the ground. I could fall head first toward the ground, and I'd be caught no differently than if I took a safe, controlled fall. I've been a victim of near accidents, possibly fatal. The most outstanding time was when I was climbing at night with a novice climber. I won't do that again. I got caught no more than 10 ft above a boulder. The partner faired worse than me, with bad rope burns to both hands.

TBlom wrote: After climbing thousands of days over 23 years, you kind of start to feel like one day your ticket might get punched. Gotta be picky!

yep, same boat here.

I don't have much exposure to grigris- but this is a fun strategy with atcs. I was taught to go through the preliminary checks and then when told by the belayer, on belay, stick out your right hand for a handshake. If they know the drill they'll make an awkward move to shake with their left- but most people will let go of the rope to shake your hand. It's a light hearted moment to emphasize wanting an attentive belay. I've noticed that with climbers stuck in ego, they get a little miffed from being "tricked", and it's those people I worry about more- vs someone who 'gets' why you would do this in the first place.