How do YOU ensure your belayer is competent?

JoeGaribay wrote: Never hear those stories when an atc is used....

If you haven't heard those stories when an atc is used it's just because you haven't been listening. Bearbreeder can give you the data if you'd like, but ATC style devices are the number one type of device used in accident where someone is dropped. The only time I've ever been dropped it was with an ATC and it wouldn't have happened with a grigri.

reddit.com/r/climbing/comme…



Everybody here seems to be telling you approximately the same thing, but I want to take it a step farther. I climbed with a stranger I met at the gym a few months ago. I did everything people have mentioned here and more: watching him belay someone else, asking how long he'd climbed and if he'd ever been outdoors. I started slow and easy, so I could watch him for any red flags. I took plenty of super safe falls to make sure he was attentitive. He was fine the first time we climbed together at the gym, and even the second. But third time's the charm, right?
At the end of our climbing day, I tied in for one last climb in the cave. I was doing fine, right up to the lip of the BKBS cave. As I pulled up to the slab, I think just past clip number six, I slipped. I took a nice free fall to the ground- absolutely zero resistance. I don't know what happened on the ground until I hit the ground, but I remember looking up at him and seeing neither of his hands touching the rope. He told me after that 'It pulled out of my hands; I don't know what happened'.
I was back boarded and taken to the ER, where I found out I had a compression fracture. I was in the hospital a week, and had six screws put in my back. I'm about three months out from this happening. I was fairly lucky- the doctors told me it was a huge advantage that I'm young and healthy. After leaving the hospital, I didn't need any physical therapy. I wear a back brace when I'm not sitting, and am otherwise able to function just fine. (Even went backpacking a few weeks ago, brace and all! My surgeon was exasperated, and compromised with 'No more than thirty pounds on your back!'
I guess moral of this is that I don't believe it's as simple as meeting someone, evaluating them, and determining then and there that a person is safe or not. They might have good technique, look fine, seem attentitive, but you have absolutely no idea if that attentiveness will still be the case on climb number n of the day, or the next day, or the day after that. The only way to /really/ be able to determine someone's safety is through long term exposure and experience with the individual. Right now, I would not climb with someone that I had recently met at the gym.
If I were to come upon a situation that I felt safe and willing to allow a stranger to belay me (stranger being someone I don't already climb with outside regularly), I would absolutely ask them to use a grigri. I know a lot of people really don't like that (I certainly didn't until recently), because tools don't make up for incompetence. But you know what? Shit happens. People make mistakes, even the most competent of us. We're human. If I have the ability to add any level of security to a situation, I am going to do that. No, I'm not expecting the grigri to be my belayer. But if a mistake happens for whatever reason, there's still a non zero chance that the back up will prevent serious injury. I'll take that over having no backup any day.

I'll look it up Kennoyce. Not denying it happens. I'm basing what I know off of posts I've read here recently, since I have been part of MP.
Damn, Bearbreader! I guess it all comes down to the attention span of the belayer.

bearbreeder wrote:https://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/3s2vfo/trusting_gym_lead_climbing/cwunod3 Everybody here seems to be telling you approximately the same thing, but I want to take it a step farther. I climbed with a stranger I met at the gym a few months ago. I did everything people have mentioned here and more: watching him belay someone else, asking how long he'd climbed and if he'd ever been outdoors. I started slow and easy, so I could watch him for any red flags. I took plenty of super safe falls to make sure he was attentitive. He was fine the first time we climbed together at the gym, and even the second. But third time's the charm, right? At the end of our climbing day, I tied in for one last climb in the cave. I was doing fine, right up to the lip of the BKBS cave. As I pulled up to the slab, I think just past clip number six, I slipped. I took a nice free fall to the ground- absolutely zero resistance. I don't know what happened on the ground until I hit the ground, but I remember looking up at him and seeing neither of his hands touching the rope. He told me after that 'It pulled out of my hands; I don't know what happened'. I was back boarded and taken to the ER, where I found out I had a compression fracture. I was in the hospital a week, and had six screws put in my back. I'm about three months out from this happening. I was fairly lucky- the doctors told me it was a huge advantage that I'm young and healthy. After leaving the hospital, I didn't need any physical therapy. I wear a back brace when I'm not sitting, and am otherwise able to function just fine. (Even went backpacking a few weeks ago, brace and all! My surgeon was exasperated, and compromised with 'No more than thirty pounds on your back!' I guess moral of this is that I don't believe it's as simple as meeting someone, evaluating them, and determining then and there that a person is safe or not. They might have good technique, look fine, seem attentitive, but you have absolutely no idea if that attentiveness will still be the case on climb number n of the day, or the next day, or the day after that. The only way to /really/ be able to determine someone's safety is through long term exposure and experience with the individual. Right now, I would not climb with someone that I had recently met at the gym. If I were to come upon a situation that I felt safe and willing to allow a stranger to belay me (stranger being someone I don't already climb with outside regularly), I would absolutely ask them to use a grigri. I know a lot of people really don't like that (I certainly didn't until recently), because tools don't make up for incompetence. But you know what? Shit happens. People make mistakes, even the most competent of us. We're human. If I have the ability to add any level of security to a situation, I am going to do that. No, I'm not expecting the grigri to be my belayer. But if a mistake happens for whatever reason, there's still a non zero chance that the back up will prevent serious injury. I'll take that over having no backup any day.

Great post, now give us that DAV dropped climber accidents by belay device type chart that you have!

Climbing is inherently dangerous. You can't eliminate all risks. Especially an inattentive belayer, even if they've successfully belayed you before. That doesn't mean an "evaluation" of a new belayer is useless, though.

kennoyce wrote: Great post, now give us that DAV dropped climber accidents by belay device type chart that you have!

Its in my profile pics

Btw the DAV chart shows munters as having one of the lowest accident rates ...

Perhaps only old experienced geezahs use muntahs in da gym?

Or perhaps a N~=1000 aint statistically significant ...

Hmmmmmmm

;)

Haha--my gym refused to let this old experienced geezah use a muntah on a day I forgot my reverso. Apparently, they wanted me to use something more likely to result in an accident.

rgold wrote:Haha--my gym refused to let this old experienced geezah use a muntah on a day I forgot my reverso. Apparently, they wanted me to use something more likely to result in an accident.

Even if you anchored it to your wheelchair?

I also forgot my wheelchair belaying certification card.

But really Frank, I've never needed more than my walker.

Then it's obviously your own fault...unless it was your altheimers kicking in again

Althheimers? Hmmm, I might not be the only one losing my marbles.

rgold wrote:I've never needed more than my walker.

Do you have the tennis balls on the legs?

Nope--stealth rubber of course.

A true pro

Chase D wrote: Exactly. That's what "dynamic" means. This topic is typical with every aspect of climbing in that every person has their own opinion and their own idea of right and wrong. Whatever works for you and keeps you alive!

Climbing friend,

I so sorry, but must be saying again taht extra rope slack makes you fall further and makes no difference in the dynamicality or softality of your catchings. Only the belayer hopping/moving toward the first piece at the correct moments in time does this. It would be the physics and not my opinion that determines this.

Aleks Zebastian wrote: Climbing friend, I so sorry, but must be saying again taht extra rope slack makes you fall further and makes no difference in the dynamicality or softality of your catchings. Only the belayer hopping/moving toward the first piece at the correct moments in time does this.

I understand completely. I'm not talking about rope slack. I'm talking about a bold flash with forearms refreshed at crux. It's my favorite part of life

Chase D wrote: I understand completely. I'm not talking about rope slack. I'm talking about a bold flash with forearms refreshed at crux. It's my favorite part of life

Climbing friend,

I now approve of your postings through tubes of internet. May your forearm be ever refreshed at crux.

Got to get to know them first or have a friend/third person pay close attention and stay close to the brake side. Its different every time. I usually trust someone I just taught over the know it all n00b.

Male belayers often pay close attention to female climbers ....

;)

"Hand them a device and hope for the best."

+1