New Yosemite Free Climbs Select Guidebook Almost Done - Call for Photos!

How much of this problem is brought about by the for profit guides and guiding services in Yosemite? It certainly would explain the arrogant attitude: the guides are used to getting socially sucked off by know-nothing "climbers", thus giving themselves an inflated view of their own climbing, their role in the community, and their level of genuine community support.

I imagine the mid-pitch anchors, as well as the bolt ladders out in the middle of nowhere, in addition to the fact that Sloan's supporters all appear to be either guides themselves or the guided climber variety, suggest that the real problem here is the guides.

This is also why some areas are kept secret: in this case, the guides inundate the rest of the area with their clients and guidebook sales, and need a place to go which is "all for them", since they deserve it as a result of them being so damn special, apparently.

Get the money out of climbing across the board. Our wild areas can't take it.

I think the other book, which will belong to the community as a whole, is the obvious one to support. Kind of a no-brainer in my eyes. The guides will still be welcome to use it as a source of information, afteral.

This really comes down to who gets the say in our wild areas. The community of climbers, as a whole, or a couple of arrogant individuals who profiteer (this includes supertopo) off the place.

Ed Hartouni -

Yes, I have added bolts to many climbs in Yosemite, mostly while replacing bolts on my own time, and dime. Your suggestion that I haven't 'fessed up' to it is comical. I published all the bigwall topos for free on my site before printing them in a book. I published the Sentinel Creek topo on this site and others. I literally stand at the El Cap bridge all season handing out new, updated Nose topos that show where things are different now.

To be clear I'm saying everyone who alters public lands should have to make their actions known to the public. I do that. It's common sense - folks need to know when routes change or are created. I'm not trying to get in an argument with you. I'm saying the way we've been doing things stinks, and it's time to change.

Also to be clear about what 'sharing' the topos means: I'm just saying the information about the routes will be public. Of course each guidebook author will have to create a unique style, using distinct fonts, line size, etc. That is the way it has always been.

Hopefully in the future folks will submit their topos to a public place, like the Yosemite Climbing Ranger office or the Yosemite Research Library, and anyone would be able to use the topo to make their own, distinct map.

JNE wrote:How much of this problem is brought about by the for profit guides and guiding services in Yosemite? It certainly would explain the arrogant attitude: the guides are used to getting socially sucked off by know-nothing "climbers", thus giving themselves an inflated view of their own climbing, their role in the community, and their level of genuine community support. I imagine the mid-pitch anchors, as well as the bolt ladders out in the middle of nowhere, in addition to the fact that Sloan's supporters all appear to be the guided climber variety, suggest that the real problem here is the guides. This is also why some areas are kept secret: in this case, the guides inundate the rest of the area with their clients and guidebook sales, and need a place to go which is "all for them", since they deserve it as a result of them being so damn special, apparently. Get the money out of climbing across the board. Our wild areas can't take it. I think the other book, which will belong to the community as a whole, is the obvious one to support. Kind of a no-brainer in my eyes. The guides will still be welcome to use it as a source of information, afteral. This really comes down to who gets the say in our wild areas. The community of climbers, as a whole, or a couple of arrogant individuals who profiteer (this includes supertopo) off the place.

Why all the guide hate? Sounds like rank jealosy.

Erik Sloan wrote:Ed Hartouni - Yes, I have added bolts to many climbs in Yosemite, mostly while replacing bolts on my own time, and dime. Your suggestion that I haven't 'fessed up' to it is comical. I published all the bigwall topos for free on my site before printing them in a book. I published the Sentinel Creek topo on this site and others.

Publishing topos isn't at all the same as specifically declaring what retrobolts you've added to what routes unless those topos specifically call out the retrobolts. Again, nothing about stepping up to rebolting gives you carte blanche to retrobolt.

"To be clear I'm saying everyone who alters public lands should have to make their actions known to the public. I do that."

Is that why it was someone else who brought the BoR anchor to our attention?

Erik Sloan wrote:Ed Hartouni - Yes, I have added bolts to many climbs in Yosemite, mostly while replacing bolts on my own time, and dime. Your suggestion that I haven't 'fessed up' to it is comical. I published all the bigwall topos for free on my site before printing them in a book. I published the Sentinel Creek topo on this site and others. I literally stand at the El Cap bridge all season handing out new, updated Nose topos that show where things are different now. To be clear I'm saying everyone who alters public lands should have to make their actions known to the public. I do that. It's common sense - folks need to know when routes change or are created. I'm not trying to get in an argument with you. I'm saying the way we've been doing things stinks, and it's time to change. Also to be clear about what 'sharing' the topos means: I'm just saying the information about the routes will be public. Of course each guidebook author will have to create a unique style, using distinct fonts, line size, etc. That is the way it has always been. Hopefully in the future folks will submit their topos to a public place, like the Yosemite Climbing Ranger office or the Yosemite Research Library, and anyone would be able to use the topo to make their own, distinct map.

Erik, following the intent of your proposal, are you willing to ensure that all of the route information in your new book and the details of any route alterations you've made are published on Mountain Project before the book is released?

I'm saying the way we've been doing things stinks, and it's time to change.


I believe this is a good starting point for a conversation that includes the climbing community interests in Yosemite Valley.

One person's view, or the view of a subset of the community, can only be a part of that conversation, not the determining factor in the outcome. The change should be a consensus, and I don't see that there is a consensus of support for your actions in the broader community. If there were, you'd be more upfront about what you're doing.

You can pick those community voices that agree with your own view, and ignore those voices that do not, and redefine "the community" such that you think you have support. I'd suggest that you take a deeper look into the discussions you've had and try to eliminate the tendency we all have to hear what we want to hear.

It has been a long held standard that existing routes are not altered.

There are many arguments for and against this standard. Thus, when considering an alteration, the widest discussion should be engaged. And if the outcome of that discussion is contrary to the decision to alter the route, the route should not be altered.

The balance between consensus and individuals has always been dynamic, and at times passions have flared. This works both ways, of course.

The desire to maintain "high standards" in Yosemite Valley comes about by the truly world class climbing that is the result of the climbing traditions developed in Yosemite Valley. Those traditions are manifest in the routes, and the manner which the first ascent team found the routes. Altering the routes denies future climbers a view of how those first ascent teams saw the route, and obscures the traditions established by those teams over the history of climbing in the Valley.

We all know "The Nose" is an awesome climb, altering it to make it convenient to climb allows more climbers to "enjoy it." But it is not clear that should be the goal in stewarding the climb into the future, especially if it obscures the accomplishments of the first ascent team. Those accomplishments are not just that they made it to the top, but how they did, and how they overcame the challenges.

To reduce and eliminate those challenges denies the climbers an important aspect of the climb.

This is a highly debatable point that has no resolution, of course, and the range of remedies extreme.

We should invite the entire community into the conversation, as the outcome affects them all/

Erik Sloan wrote:Hi Gang, Thanks for all the photos! I've received several awesome shots, and will be in touch with everyone who contributed soon. As for the rest of this thread, this has not turned out to be a place where we can have a constructive conversation about fixed anchor ethics in Yosemite. So I'm going to write a blog post on Yosemitebigwall.com to address each of the concerns that have been raised here. When that is up, proally by tomorrow night, I will take down this post. That way we can discuss things in a more constructive manner. Best, Erik erik@yosemitebigwall.com

No, you won't.
Quoted for history.

Spiny Norman wrote: You can judge whether he is credible.

Thanks for posting that, it was great to read!

Wow, sorry for the mix up about the Weekend At Albert's routes. Carry, one of my co-authors, was the contact there and I just picked up the topo from Albert at Yosemite Lodge. I misunderstood Alex and John. No worries, we'll fix it. What are the names of the routes?

I want to be clear that I fully support, and have always supported, Don, Ed, Clint, and Eric's book. When I made the new Free Dawn Wall topo for El Cap this year, I sent the Adobe Illustrator file to these guys - so they could just change the fonts and other stuff and make it their own topo, without having to redraw it from a pdf or a printed page. I told them I would send them all the files that I had for bigwall climbs, if that would help them. I have encouraged collaboration throughout the process of making this book. There is plenty of room for a couple guidebooks to Yosemite - heck how many guidebooks are there for places like Joshua Tree and Red Rocks? Two is nothing. And my book is going to be a Select book, so it's not even directly competing with Don and gang's book.

Kent Richards -

Yes I'm happy to publish any changes/updates/new routes. But not here on Mountain Project, because it's owned by REI. But I support the YCA creating a site where new routes and/or changes can be registered. We have this awesome Yosemite Climbing organization, which just became a Park Partner, let's put it to work!

Whenever a route changes I try to post about it on the Summit Register on Yosemitebigwall.com, if it's a bigwall climb. I'm working on adding all the free routes to Yosemitebigwall.com now.

I'm not going to publish all of the topos before the app comes out(hopefully next month!), I'm just going to make the app almost free ($3 I think) to encourage folks to help me correct anything before we print the book. I also have the book printed out here in Yosemite and am always showing folks pages and encouraging them to take pictures of them, and send me feedback. I published the topos for free with the bigwall book because I knew that that book would take several years. This one is going to be done this year! Yaye!

Ed Hartouni -

For sure living and working in Yosemite the last 13 years has given me awesome access to discuss issues with the climbing community here. And for sure replacing thousands of bolts and doing hundreds of hours of stewardship around the Valley, for the last 17 years straight, has given me experience in that realm. Your suggestion that 'There has been a long held ethic that established routes are not altered' does not bear out in a actual history. People change routes all the time, sometimes with and sometimes without the consent of the FA party. I don't want to be right, and I don't want you to be wrong, I just want us all to have a healthy dialogue about this, as we all agree that we will probably never agree, haha.

I"m sorry you don't remember the situation with Sean Jones' topos. It was awful, but I used the example more to highlight what I believe to be a policy failure - that FAist are not required to report their climbs, than to make any personal attack against you.

I'm sorry if there was a mix up about a photo of yours that may have been published in my bigwall guide. I emailed you and said that I had gotten a similar image from Tom Evans, and I wasn't sure whose image was whose. I thought you said you didn't care, and Tom Evans said he thought the image was his, so I went with that. It's a pic of Leaning Tower from Tunnel View. Sorry about that mixup. Tom Evans signed the photo release for you, haha.

Spiny Norman, I have quoted you whole cloth ,without proper attribution before
I apologize .( it was a gear /pack review in the past 4 months)
Thank you, ,&
thank you for those most informative links.
I wanted to try to explain the weight behind Ed H
and I'm sorry he had to get or got sucked into this!
Clint C is the most solid source as well
Respect them and hope that this crap does not cause them to shelve the hard work they are doing

When will the Yosemite Select be ready for purchase?

When will the Ed, Clint guide be ready for purchase?

I just finished up my Central Pillar/Bircheff-Williams topo. Check it out it looks like someone added a bolted sport route that adds an anchor to the middle of the second pitch of Paradise Lost(on the right side of the map, off of Pee Pee Pillar).

Some friends climbed Paradise Lost and made me a topo for the route. They were super stoked on those added bolts and anchors. For sure some will call it progress, and some will say the opposite. Go Climb it and decide for yourself.

Erik Sloan wrote:People change routes all the time, sometimes with and sometimes without the consent of the FA party.

No, they don't, and it's a sad affair when it happens because it's almost universally a matter of retrobolting.

Erik Sloan wrote:Check it out it looks like someone added a bolted sport route that adds an anchor to the middle of the second pitch of Paradise Lost(on the right side of the map, off of Pee Pee Pillar). Some friends climbed Paradise Lost and made me a topo for the route. They were super stoked on those added bolts and anchors. For sure some will call it progress, and some will say the opposite. Go Climb it and decide for yourself.

Again, not remotely interested in a conversation, but if "deciding for yourself" means you're ok with chopping retrobolts and retrobolted anchors like your just chopped BoR mid-pitch anchor, then sure.

Let see what you wrote for your etiquette section in the guidebook...

Erik Sloan wrote: Yes I'm happy to publish any changes/updates/new routes. But not here on Mountain Project, because it's owned by REI.

My own suggestion with respect to that is that you can leave any time, and if you don't like the site, don't use it.
I don't walk into people's houses for dinner and then piss on the floor. If I don't like them, I just don't go there.

reboot wrote: Doubt it, I see more whiners than doers on ST & here, and the little forum boycotting isn't going to hurt the book sale, not when hordes of foreign climbers visit the valley every day. I doubt they'll give 2 fucks about whether the FA info is completely accurate. The only real way to hurt him financially is to come out with a better guidebook ASAP, but that takes real work. While this Erik dude sounds like an ass (& I certainly don't support a lot of what he's doing), I can see where he's coming from. If he goes out & do a bunch of work (that needed to be done) on his own, then it's pretty rich for the armchair whiners to dictate what he can do and how they should be done. It's pretty simple: if you don't want a guy like this to exist, don't give him an excuse/reason/opportunity, get all the work done yourself.

For certain there is more talk than action. But the BOR anchor bolts are now gone, so people are willing to act.

It is interesting that we've had more responses from ES now that people are trying to take a position that could impact his bottom line. Is that what it takes to get your attention?

Tony B wrote: My own suggestion with respect to that is that you can leave any time, and if you don't like the site, don't use it. I don't walk into people's houses for dinner and then piss on the floor. If I don't like them, I just don't go there.

I know, right? He's plenty willing to advertise and call for photos for his book on this site!

K Weber wrote:When will the Yosemite Select be ready for purchase? When will the Ed, Clint guide be ready for purchase?

You want it fast, or you want it done right? You want it done by people who are deeply (small-c) conservative and thoughtful in their use and stewardship of the resource, or you want it done by a cheerfully unhinged mad bolter who's made it abundantly clear that he couldn't possibly give two shits what other people think before he whips out the power drill?

At this point there is literally nothing Sloan could do or say that would make me feel good about spending money on his book — or even using a friend's copy of it. It's damaged goods. Bad karma. Permanently tainted.

For sure living and working in Yosemite the last 13 years has given me awesome access to discuss issues with the climbing community here. And for sure replacing thousands of bolts and doing hundreds of hours of stewardship around the Valley, for the last 17 years straight, has given me experience in that realm. Your suggestion that 'There has been a long held ethic that established routes are not altered' does not bear out in a actual history. People change routes all the time, sometimes with and sometimes without the consent of the FA party. I don't want to be right, and I don't want you to be wrong, I just want us all to have a healthy dialogue about this, as we all agree that we will probably never agree, haha.


I read this as saying something more like:

I have been guiding here for the past seventeen years, and retrobolting routes for the purposes of making my guiding service easier and safer for the past thirteen years. As a result, I personally challenge the notion that routes never get changed. For the record, my Yosemite guide forebears also changed routes, for the same reason, under the same logic, which is that they were just plain psyched. For sure, the time I have invested into my guiding services here in Yosemite for seventeen years has inanely entitled me to have more than just a single vote in the community, after all, I'm super psyched. Ed, you are clearly wrong, and I am clearly right, after all, I'm super psyched, and being psyched is what this is all about.

The guy seems nice enough, but clearly demonstrates himself to be unwilling to listen to any criticism regarding how much say he personally should have in the community. He has been voted down, here and elsewhere, and if he was any kind of community leader of any kind, like he very clearly claims to be, he would listen to the wide array of voices who have publicly put their vote in against his retrobolting actions. These include both regular climbers, as well as people who set or influence policy in Yosemite. I see no reason any of his decisions should be respected as representing any kind of consensus.

Additionally, the guides and guidebook authors appear to me to have a conflict of interest with the community at large regarding resource use, which is what leads to these kinds of situations in the first place. This is a larger problem, of which I think this situation is only an example. It seems to me the solution involves having people, both those who set policy as well as regular community members, recognizing that these people act with financially self serving reasons regarding a public resource, and treat them appropriately in light of that.