Mountaineer Coil Problem

I've been doing the mountaineer coil using the over/under technique.
It works very well except on rare occasions I get a series of overhand knots in the rope when uncoiling. I don't know what I'm doing differently when it happens. Has anyone had this happen and can explain why?

If you've stuck to the over-under consistently, (throughout the entire coil) then you should be able to pass an end through the center of the coil and not get any knots. ( not recommended). If you were to pass an end through some of the coils then you would get a (singular) knot. Just got to keep track of those rope ends. Also, if your sure that you've started uncoiling from the right end and you get a tangle then DONT pass an end of the rope through to sort it out or you'll end up with a knot (Or knots) instead of an "a-hole" or knot on a bight. Hope that makes sense.

I run a DJ company and use the in/out or over/under for cables, but those are different. Must Velcro them when done to keep sorted. If an end goes thru, u get a knot for every loop. In a climbing rope, this could cause deadly situations. I would never again use that method on a rope -I did once and got knots.

The mountaineer coil will add a twist per coil, but that is easy to shake out on belay, then flake out if needed. Try practicing with your climbing partner to see if you can each coil the opposite direction to counter the twists each will create.

Properly done butterfly coils essentially create a figure eight on your neck, so they are ideal for keeping the rope untwisted. I always start from the end, never from the center, to avoid bunching of the rope.

two words. Rope bag.

Jeremy in Inyokern wrote:two words. Rope bag.

Two words: Wrong forum;-) Heh, see how I did that?

This being in the mountaineering thread, you will find exactly zero rope bags in the mountains due to the added weight and general lack of a good ledge to belay from. Rope bags are for crags where you move between single pitch climbs.

IMHO, the mountaineer's coil should only be used for glacier travel, mountaineering, multipitch, etc, where you need to contain rope length so you and your partner can take up slack and give it out while remaining tied in and safe.

The real pro, Mountain Guide Mike Barter:
youtu.be/UmBafmArn-8

When I have my rope bag at the crag, I use the butterfly coil at the end of the day to prevent the gremlins from getting in there and tangling it all up. Then I look like a pro when I open the bag up next time, no twists or knots, searching for the end, etc.

Butterfly and Mountaineer coils with variations.
youtu.be/VdkiBloUmIs

Clint White wrote: Two words: Wrong forum;-) Heh, see how I did that? This being in the mountaineering thread, you will find exactly zero rope bags in the mountains due to the added weight and general lack of a good ledge to belay from. Rope bags are for crags where you move between single pitch climbs. IMHO, the mountaineer's coil should only be used for glacier travel, mountaineering, multipitch, etc, where you need to contain rope length so you and your partner can take up slack and give it out while remaining tied in and safe. The real pro, Mountain Guide Mike Barter: youtu.be/UmBafmArn-8 When I have my rope bag at the crag, I use the butterfly coil at the end of the day to prevent the gremlins from getting in there and tangling it all up. Then I look like a pro when I open the bag up next time, no twists or knots, searching for the end, etc. Butterfly and Mountaineer coils with variations. youtu.be/VdkiBloUmIs

There's no need to coil the rope if you carry a rope bag. Tie the ends of the rope to the two straps on either end of the bag.

Clint White wrote:IMHO, the mountaineer's coil should only be used for glacier travel, mountaineering, multipitch, etc, where you need to contain rope length so you and your partner can take up slack and give it out while remaining tied in and safe.

I agree, the only time I use the mountaineer's coil is when I'm short roping (kiwi coil), the ends are tied to the climbers. If a belay is needed, then it's easy to undo the tie-off and feed out (take in) slack one loop at a time without creating any tangles. When I need to carry the rope just for approach and descents, I always use the butterfly coil.

For the guys who recommend a rope bag... notice this is posted under the "mountaineering" forum? I always use a rope bag for cragging, but never for alpine or mountaineering.

Bill Kirby wrote: There's no need to coil the rope if you carry a rope bag. Tie the ends of the rope to the two straps on either end of the bag.

Agreed. I still do the butterfly coil dance for three reasons.

1) I am flaking the rope while I coil.

2) When I get to the end, I can tie the recently unused end off at the green loop, thus signifying that I want to climb from that end next time we start a route or day at the small wall.

3) The Gremlins, which are known to muck up my audio cables.
Must see Gremlins bar scene:
youtu.be/TI7FkvGC5GA

aikibujin wrote: I agree, the only time I use the mountaineer's coil is when I'm short roping (kiwi coil), the ends are tied to the climbers. If a belay is needed, then it's easy to undo the tie-off and feed out (take in) slack one loop at a time without creating any tangles. When I need to carry the rope just for approach and descents, I always use the butterfly coil. For the guys who recommend a rope bag... notice this is posted under the "mountaineering" forum? I always use a rope bag for cragging, but never for alpine or mountaineering.

There's only one guy saying carry a rope bag mountaineering. I just wanted to point out you don't need to coil the rope if you carry a bag. But thanks for playing!

I've mountaineer's coiled (or over-under, whatever) my rope on multiple occasions and haven't had the knots situation. But I also tie off the ends around the coil several times. There are certain benefits to a mountaineer's coil (when done correctly) over the standard butterfly, but ultimately it depends on the situation.

1, if you have a day pack and can't stand having the rope and day pack compete for the same spot.

2, your day pack is too small to carry a rope inside or too wimpy to support a rope attached to the exterior.

3, lots of scrambling is involved. Having the rope weight evenly distributed between your front and back keeps your body's balance close to natural.

Bill Kirby wrote:I just wanted to point out you don't need to coil the rope if you carry a bag.

I thought anyone who uses a rope bag would know that?

Who would carry a rope bag in the mountains??

Collin Holt wrote:Who would carry a rope bag in the mountains??

For reals, use a blue ikea bag!

Most of the mountain routes I've climbed were solo. when I do bring a rope it's short and I personally use a coil. The OP says he has issues. A bag would fix his issue. And since you already broke rule #1, go fuck your self.

Yes, I am referring to multi-pitch/alpine applications. I do have a rope bag and use for cragging.

The over/under technique is a way of doing the alpine coil that prevents kinking because it mitigates rope twist as you coil. If you're not familiar with it, check out the video. It's really only useful for coiling your rope for travel, not unlike the butterfly. You can't use the technique for kiwi-coiling.

I think the original answer is the good one: you have to pull the rope off the coil in the same direction you coiled it. If you switch directions (i.e. pull the end through the coil) you get a bunch of overhand knots.

Mike Barter rules. Climb on.

Jeremy in Inyokern wrote:Most of the mountain routes I've climbed were solo. when I do bring a rope it's short and I personally use a coil. The OP says he has issues. A bag would fix his issue. And since you already broke rule #1, go fuck your self.

Yes but the mountain routes you have soloed are footpaths.Might be wrong but you do come over like a bit of a twit

USBRIT wrote: Yes but the mountain routes you have soloed are footpaths.Might be wrong but you do come over like a bit of a wanker

what the fuck do either of those comments have to do with the topic?

I remember you now. You're the English bastard that is always blathering on about gun control.

Dude, is this the mountains you're talking about? Is that a platypus in your rope bag?

Jeremy 'climbing' with his rope bag

Jeremy in Inyokern wrote: what the fuck do either of those comments have to do with the topic? I remember you now. You're the English bastard that is always blathering on about gun control.

Thanks for confirming my comment about you being a bit of a twit,I guess your personal photo says it all.. This English bastard as you title me has been a yank for as long as yourself . I was pointing out that your resume does not give you any substance to give mountaineers/climbers any advice ....together with your insistence of using bad language in your comments. Bye the way congrats on your first 14'er this year..my Jack Russell Terriers have done 20 .

"I think the original answer is the good one: you have to pull the rope off the coil in the same direction you coiled it. If you switch directions (i.e. pull the end through the coil) you get a bunch of overhand knots"

Exactly. When I used to coil cables a lot, you had to have a rule like 'pay out left, connector facing away' and do it the same way every time to avoid the knots every 6 feet..

sarcasm wrote:Dude, is this the mountains you're talking about? Is that a platypus in your rope bag?

Yeah that's the summit of Mt Emerson near Piute Pass. Very fun route (SE Face aka Waterfall Route). My profile has more pics of the climb. It's the one with the huge gendarmes. It gets done by a lot by Eastside folks but I think it's far from being a trade route. Yes I have done many "trade routes" since August, but thats sort of expected when you set a goal to climb the 15 California 14'ers. 3 down 12 to go. Don't really understand the strange animal question about my camel back though if you can figure out a way to fit a rope IN a camel back pleases send pictures. As for as somebodies dog climbing 14'rs goes, sure, in Colorado, it gets done every day. Come out to the Sierra and see how that goes for ya. I still think a bag of some sort may be a viable solution for many situations such as a leader pack with a hole in the bottom. Again I would just throw a coil over my shoulder and flake the rope out if I was on doubt. This forum is really just full of people who would not speak the same in person as they would on the boards. I talk the same on the boards as I do in person. People I meet in person are not hostile in response. I guess I had a few G&T's in this thread and I was also a Sailor so if my foul mouth offended anybody...wait, no, I still don't care about that.