Montana murder suspect charged for 2013 Ten Sleep Canyon shooting

cragman2 wrote: If nobody cared. there would not be such heated discourse about the subject on a climbing forum. The reality is, you can argue either side (or the middle ground) on some issues (such as guns) endlessly and most people are alreday set in their opinions & facts/statistics/other opinions will never change their minds. Doesn't mean nobody cares though it often seems futile to argue about it.

You completely misunderstood me and then repeated what I said.
I said nobody is interested in the truth. They only want to argue their position, not the facts. In other words, it is political/religious(*).

(*) = Religious being defined as a system of beliefs, rites and rituals based on faith not evidence, having a set of sacred texts, and charismatic leaders.

Tony B wrote: You completely misunderstood me and then repeated what I said. I said nobody is interested in the truth. They only want to argue their position, not the facts. In other words, it is political/religious(*). (*) = Religious being defined as a system of beliefs, rites and rituals based on faith not evidence, having a set of sacred texts, and charismatic leaders.

I certainly agree with that.
Obviously, people care about the issues but you are correct that they really don't care to listen to anyone elses thoughts on the issues

Long Duk Dong wrote:I've heard the argument before that the more people armed, the safer everyone is because it acts as a deterrent and in the case of an actual event the general population is equipped to deal with it. This may seem logical on some level and is a similar approach that countries have taken with respect to nuclear arms. I wonder what it would like in real life however. Take the Aurora shooting for example. Someone opens fire in a dark theatre full of armed people of all ages and what happens next? What would you do as an armed citizen in that crowd? I imagine things would get out of control pretty quick with people firing all over the place not being able to see what is going on while the adrenaline is surging. Then what do the police do when they arrive on the scene and there’s a bunch of random shooting going on? What if someone is accidentally killed? I think it is unrealistic to think an average person could handle that situation at all effectively. It takes a tremendous amount of training and experience for police or military to become able to engage these situations. To me it seems like a psychotic way to deal with the ever present threat of violence just as it is with nuclear arms. In an effort to protect ourselves we have created a more dangerous situation that could destroy the entire planet. Surely there is a better way.

Speaking of the Aurora shooting, did you know that the shooter chose the theater because of it's gun-free policy? There were theaters closer to him but they didn't ban patrons from carrying firearms on their persons.

Matt Wilson wrote: Speaking of the Aurora shooting, did you know that the shooter chose the theater because of it's gun-free policy? There were theaters closer to him but they didn't ban patrons from carrying firearms on their persons.

Not true.

Read this: thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/…

and here is the relevant info if you do not want to click the link.

"he settled on a movie theater. But how to choose which one? Did he factor in that one was posted “no guns allowed” and another one wasn’t? No — apparently there is no evidence that such a thought ever crossed his twisted mind. He chose the Aurora theater because, according to Ellifritz:

…the particular theater he selected had an exit into a rear parking lot that was isolated and had limited visibility. That theater also had easy access from the outside, and a minimal number of exits (2). The killer noted that the doors could easily be locked or chained to prevent escape. He rejected theaters that were in the front of the complex, those that were more visible, and those that had numerous exits.

Why does this matter? Because, as Ellifritz also points out, we should know what the facts are and what the actual causes were. It doesn’t serve the gun rights community’s cause to continue repeating false narratives. We may not know what the thought process was in every killer’s head, but at least we know what the thought processes were in this killer’s head, and continuing to claim that he chose his target “because it was a gun-free zone” is simply not true.

Ellifritz says:

All of us who are gun rights advocates want to believe that this was yet another example where restrictive carry policies made a particular target very palatable for the killer. That wasn’t the case. It’s important not to let our personal feelings or hunches replace the facts in cases like these. In the ever-present debate against the anti-gunners, we have the facts on our side. We must stick to the truth and the facts we know so that we retain credibility in the debate."

And just to be clear, I am for gun control, own a gun and I am sick of bullshit arguments.

Devil's advocate here.

Mass stabbing at a campus in CA.

cnn.com/2015/11/04/us/unive…

Tony B wrote: But if you insist, I will invite you to find me an example of the horror of which you speak, whereas a civilian opens fire in defense in the fog/haze and kills even more folks.

Well since you asked...
rawstory.com/2015/09/texas-…

This is all I'll say on the subject. Feel free to flame away.

cfuttner wrote: Well since you asked... rawstory.com/2015/09/texas-… This is all I'll say on the subject. Feel free to flame away.

As I said previously the US mindset of many citizens is still in the Wild Wild West. I think lots of carrying gun owners fantasize on the day they can get into a gun fight with one of these multi shooter guys.. dream on cowboys.

cfuttner wrote: Well since you asked... rawstory.com/2015/09/texas-… This is all I'll say on the subject. Feel free to flame away.

No need to flame. All I need say is that your link has nothing to do with this:

Long Duk Dong wrote:I imagine things would get out of control pretty quick with people firing all over the place not being able to see what is going on while the adrenaline is surging. Then what do the police do when they arrive on the scene and there’s a bunch of random shooting going on?

If you can find me something like that, I'm up for hearing about it. That is what I asked about.

USBRIT wrote: As I said previously the US mindset of many citizens is still in the Wild Wild West. I think lots of carrying gun owners fantasize on the day they can get into a gun fight with one of these multi shooter guys.. dream on cowboys.

Probably only true of a small minority of gun owners-most of us are not crazy and itching to shoot someone.

I earlier alluded to George Zimmerman as someone who shouldn't be carrying a gun and he's a good example of someone who packed a firearm so he could be a hero and confront "bad guys". Problem was, he started some s__t and got his ass kicked, so he shot that poor kid. Totally unnecessary.....

Scott McMahon wrote:Devil's advocate here. Mass stabbing at a campus in CA. cnn.com/2015/11/04/us/unive…

Devil advocating on which side? I think that is a perfect example of where if he had a gun it would have been much worse as it seems no one died besides the stabber?

The latest shooting in Colorado Springs further pushes me to think we dont have very sensible gun laws right now. A woman called the police saying a crazed man was running around with guns. The police said "thats normal, this is America" and did nothing. Then the guy proceeded a few minutes to shoot people for no apparent reason and kill them. Is that not a messed up state of affairs?

jason.cre wrote: Devil advocating on which side? I think that is a perfect example of where if he had a gun it would have been much worse as it seems no one died besides the stabber? The latest shooting in Colorado Springs further pushes me to think we dont have very sensible gun laws right now. A woman called the police saying a crazed man was running around with guns. The police said "thats normal, this is America" and did nothing. Then the guy proceeded a few minutes to shoot people for no apparent reason and kill them. Is that not a messed up state of affairs?

As I have always said.. no solution ..Its the Wild Wild West..

Tim Lutz wrote: uh, no... I live in the Matrix like everyone else. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

Bullshit. No one is forcing you to support these large corporations. You do it because they offer you too much convenience for a low enough cost, and you are too lazy to live life without their services.

You can't willingly send them your money and then bitch about how they have your money. It makes you a hypocrite.

jason.cre wrote: Devil advocating on which side? I think that is a perfect example of where if he had a gun it would have been much worse as it seems no one died besides the stabber? The latest shooting in Colorado Springs further pushes me to think we dont have very sensible gun laws right now. A woman called the police saying a crazed man was running around with guns. The police said "thats normal, this is America" and did nothing. Then the guy proceeded a few minutes to shoot people for no apparent reason and kill them. Is that not a messed up state of affairs?

I'm pro-gun, pro-mental health, pro sensible laws if I can be all 3. Example I think people should carry, but the guy that dropped his daughter off with a assault rifle because he legally could...that is insane.

I grew up shooting and hunting. Never point a gun loaded or unloaded at anything unless you are willing to pull the trigger.

I couldn't quality what our issues are in a sentence, but overall mental health, drugs, bad parenting etc. are the issues. Everyone is flipping crazy these days. And of course the population exploded in the past decades.

Scott McMahon wrote: I'm pro-gun, pro-mental health, pro sensible laws if I can be all 3. Example I think people should carry, but the guy that dropped his daughter off with a assault rifle because he legally could...that is insane. I grew up shooting and hunting. Never point a gun loaded or unloaded at anything unless you are willing to pull the trigger. I couldn't quality what our issues are in a sentence, but overall mental health, drugs, bad parenting etc. are the issues. Everyone is flipping crazy these days. And of course the population exploded in the past decades.

I agree that the need to address mental health is far more important, and will be far more effective, than continuing to try to prevent violence through gun laws.

Let's make guns illegal and make the jail sentences for owning one crazy long. That worked so well for drugs.

And that's what it is really. They are trying to address massive social issues with laws.

Although drugs or prohibition is a different beast, simply passing laws will not address the problem are FUCKED up.

doligo wrote: The thing is, people on the streets of New York are killed with guns bought in the states like Vermont. That's the frustration NYC mayors have had with gun laws in this country.

Don't know about Vermont, but in PA - which also borders NY, I'm pretty sure you can't buy a handgun in the state unless you are a resident.

Stagg54 wrote: Don't know about Vermont, but in PA - which also borders NY, I'm pretty sure you can't buy a handgun in the state unless you are a resident.

You can buy from a different state but the shop has to send the long gun or pistol to an FFL holder in NY. Some gun shows and private sales you could buy a gun without paperwork.

Straw buyers are the problem not state law

Long Duk Dong wrote: I wonder what it would like in real life however. Take the Aurora shooting for example. Someone opens fire in a dark theatre full of armed people of all ages and what happens next? What would you do as an armed citizen in that crowd? I imagine things would get out of control pretty quick with people firing all over the place not being able to see what is going on while the adrenaline is surging. Then what do the police do when they arrive on the scene and there’s a bunch of random shooting going on? What if someone is accidentally killed? I think it is unrealistic to think an average person could handle that situation at all effectively. It takes a tremendous amount of training and experience for police or military to become able to engage these situations.

That is why anybody who is serious about self-defense will tell you training is far more important. There are very serious handgun training courses out there for civilians. I know. I have a friend who teaches them and I've taken a few. They cover a lot more than just marksmanship. It covers mindset, tactics, how to interact with law-enforcement, when to/or not to get involved, etc. Unfortunately many people who own guns don't take the courses available. They think their macho bravado and a few sessions of target practice are enough. As much as I support the 2nd amendment, I do think that is comes with some responsibility to be adequately trained.

Scott McMahon wrote: I'm pro-gun, pro-mental health, pro sensible laws if I can be all 3. Example I think people should carry, but the guy that dropped his daughter off with a assault rifle because he legally could...that is insane. I grew up shooting and hunting. Never point a gun loaded or unloaded at anything unless you are willing to pull the trigger. I couldn't quality what our issues are in a sentence, but overall mental health, drugs, bad parenting etc. are the issues. Everyone is flipping crazy these days. And of course the population exploded in the past decades.

These days..... Crime rates are actually relatively low "these days" in the U.S (including homicide). Not sure what makes u think people are any crazier "these days".