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Ice Tool advice

Original Post
James B · · Northfield, VT · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 5

I'm looking at getting into Ice this season, last season I used my fiends set of BD Viper, while my friend did study abroad, and I got hooked on Ice. So this season I want to get my own tools, so I don't have to steal his.

I will be climbing in the New England area, Mostly in the Greens in Vermont, and doing WI2-WI4 most the time, and maybe a few Alpine runs on Mansfield, Washington or Katadhin this winter. I am not at that point where I think Mixed is in my ability range, so I'm looking at Ice specific, but can do some alpine.

I don't mind spending more for a tool which will last longer. I would like something to grow with and learn on, but I can also do some of the crazy stuff later.

Right now I'm looking at...
Petzl Quark
Cassin X-All Mountain
BD Cobra
Trango Raptor
Grivel Quantum Tech

Also what is the consensus on buying used ice tools? Is that bad Juju or is it not a problem?

If you have any experience or pointers and advice you can give me, I would greatly appreciate it!

sarcasm · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 445

Used tools are fine.
I think the best tools for strictly waterfall ice (not mixed) are the BD Cobras. I also think the Quarks are great too.
Read a pretty amazing review on the X All Mountains though, at least as far as thin ice is concerned.

I just bought the BD Fuel, excited to try them out.

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

Try and get your hands on every tool in your list and see what works well for you. I think you'll find that Cassin tools displace the least ice and clean the easiest.

Used tools can be a good deal.

As far as advice, learn good technique from a mentor or guide.

Marty Theriault · · Quebec, QC · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 310
James B wrote:I'm looking at... Petzl Quark Cassin X-All Mountain BD Cobra Trango Raptor Grivel Quantum Tech !
All great tools, you did your home work, it comes down to personal preference, find a way to TRY them all before you buy, don`t be affraid to look into the more ergonomic tool like the Nomic, X dream, Fuel, Master's even if you don`t mix climb yet, I personally prefer those more aggressive tools... enjoy, it's a fun process !
Marty Theriault · · Quebec, QC · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 310
Bill Kirby wrote: Try and get your hands on every tool in your list and see what works well for you. I think you'll find that Cassin tools displace the least ice and clean the easiest. Used tools can be a good deal. As far as advice, learn good technique from a mentor or guide.
Bill, I think we posted at the same time hahah
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
Theriault wrote: Bill, I think we posted at the same time hahah
That's the second time we've thought the same thing too :)
Marty Theriault · · Quebec, QC · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 310
Bill Kirby wrote: That's the second time we've thought the same thing too :)
great minds think alike! hahah
Jon H · · PC, UT · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 118

Honestly, if you don't have the opportunity to try before you buy, just buy whatever is cheap. Seriously. Then you can sell them down the road without losing too much money if you decide you want to try something different.

I've owned: Petzl Nomics, Ergos, and Quarks, BD Cobras and Vipers, Grivel Quantum Tech, Matrix Tech, X-Monster, Force Alloy, Taakoon, Cassin X-All Mountain and X-Dream, DMM Fly, and Trango Raptor 2.

I've liked them all - they were all fine. I could probably have done my hardest ice leads with any single tool on that list (except for the DMM Fly, but that's obvious). Some maybe have a tiny edge over the others in specific scenarios, but the truth is, nobody makes a bad ice axe anymore. It's all personal preference.

Jon H · · PC, UT · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 118

I wrote this short comparison 3 years ago and I'm pasting it here, although I should update it one of these days. For reference, I've been climbing ice for 8 years, climbing in general for 15 years, and I'm 6'2" and 185 lbs. Typically lead WI 5 or 5+, M6-7. I've followed WI6, M9.

The 2 main tools that are missing from the review are the X-Dream and the Trango Raptor. I'll get around to them sooner or later. Suffice it to say, those are the 2 pairs of tools I own right now, with no plans to sell either set.
--------------------------

BD COBRA
One of my favorite all around tools, especially for alpinism. Only sold it because matching on the upper grip causes pick shift which is kinda scary, especially when you're run out. Took it to Chamonix for 3 weeks and was happy with my choice, especially with a set of Aermet picks.

BD VIPER
Like the Cobra but a bit clunkier, heavier, and not as well damped on vibration. Cheaper though.

PETZL NOMIC
Currently have a pair. Great for mixed climbing and even drytooling. Not crazy about them for pure ice, even steep 5+ waterfalls. I find the pick angle too aggressive and rarely get first-swing sticks. This applies across the board using Ice, Dry, and older Cascade picks.

PETZL QUARKS (2nd gen)
Didn't like them at all. Very light, great all around tool, but uncomfortable for my hand, hated the "trigger" and bashed my knuckles more than any other tool. Sold them off after 3-4 days.

PETZL ERGO
Too Ergo for me. Took them to Ouray and up routes like Tic Tac (M6/7) and Seamstress (M8) and the angle was just too aggressive for me. Almost a full "C" shape. They would probably be ideal for pulling through tiered roofs where you have an unstable, blind hook each time you need to pull through, but for consistent 10-deg-past-vertical walls they were a bit awkward. This tool personified the "more is not always better" axiom, at least with regards to ice tool geometry aggressiveness. Stronger climbers (like local NE hardman PCooke who bought them from me) may disagree.

BD FUSION
Mediocre on ice - pick is too steep. Forces you to "chop" unnaturally at the ice in a downward angle instead of swinging in to it horizontally. Great at mixed routes with minimal/thin ice that warrants gentle taps. Even better drytooling/hooking/torquing. Comfortable handle. Haven't had a chance to try out the "Fusion Ice" pick yet so can't comment on that, but I've heard good things.

GRIVEL QUANTUM TECH
My favorite pure ice tool ever. Light, balanced, first-swing sticks almost every single time. Love the picks too - Grivel has the best metallurgy I've yet to encounter. Only complaint is "perceived" fragility - I'm not 100% comfortable torquing on them or even worse, torquing the shaft in a crack. Also it has a poor upper "shelf" for matching but that can be easily fixed with some MacGyver skills. The pinky hook could stand to be a bit bigger (larger radius, to be specific) as well - can be uncomfortable for those with big hands (i.e. me). The inside presses uncomfortably on my pinky knuckles.

GRIVEL FORCE (Carbon)
Drytooling beast. Climbs like nothing else I've ever used. Would hate to have to climb much ice though. It hooks way better than it swings.

GRIVEL MASTER (Alloy)
Great all around tool if you focus on harder ice/mixed routes. Lots of bling factor and gets a lot of attention at the crag if you're into that sort of thing. Don't bother with it if you max out around WI4. Wish the head had some more weight. Feels very balanced in the hand and is very comfortable to hook, but the swing was tough for me to get right consistently. Not good for very cold weather - my hands are too big to fit in the fixed-size upper pinky shelf if I'm wearing my thickest gloves.

CONCLUSIONS
It's easy to find a tool to fit a single niche. I'm still loving my Quantums for pure ice and pretty happy with the Nomics for mixed. I have yet to find an ice tool that I truly love for alpine use. If I was going to Chamonix or Canmore tomorrow I would probably take Quantums. Nomics if it was a thin season or objectively knew there would be substantial mixed sections on the routes we're aiming for.

If they could fix the pick shift on the Cobras it would be a one-tool quiver, but that would take a heavy redesign and it would no longer be the Cobra.

For HARD drytooling, get the Grivel Force (Carbon or Alloy) if you've got the coin, otherwise you'll still be very happy with Fusions or Nomics. There are some efficiencies to be gained if your tools share the same pick system. I personally prefer BD picks attachment style (and hate Petzl's) but the Petzl picks generally win overall, so I've got Nomics. The new BD Fuels are interesting and could bring me back to BD if they get it right.

CONCLUSIONS UPDATED FOR 2015/2016
I do 90% of my climbing on X-Dreams. Love them. Never had so many one-swing sticks. This is my favorite all around tool I've ever climbed on. Their picks have lovely geometry, but soft, shitty steel. CAMP claims that the softer steel is "stickier" and thus more secure on mixed/dry moves, but they don't feel any more secure to me than Petzl or Grivel steel which lasts WAY longer. Luckily, CAMP picks are a good deal cheaper than any of the competitors, so it balances out.

I would take X-Dreams pretty much anywhere short of a mellow alpine trip or ski mountaineering. Cham, Canmore, Cody, Hyalite, or Ouray... X-dreams would be my choice. Going to climb Liberty Ridge on Rainier.... probably the brand new black BD Vipers.

Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180

The OP list is pretty complete, if you can try out the tools first you'll be better off. I climb water ice on Nomics, my wife climbs on Quarks. I personally don't like the Quarks for water ice but they are very flexible and great for alpine ice. She likes them fine and follows WI5 on them. I think Petzl does the best job producing a family of tools that interchange parts for multiple purposes. In general I just like Petzl's ice and alpine gear as a whole.

Medic741 · · Des Moines, IA (WTF) · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 265

Next time you're in the GUNKS stop by the Rock and snow annex. They can have some killer deals. Picked up an awesome pair of reactors there which have served me very well

Emmett Lyman · · Stoneham, MA (Boston burbs) · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 480

Used tools are fine.

The ones you listed are all great tools. But they have really different swings. If you have the patience, try as many out as you can and see what feels most natural to you. Still, if you end up buying any of them you'll learn the swing and will probably end up happy.

Noah Haber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 78

Excellent advice in this thread. Try a ton, then buy. Used is totally fine.

Also noticed that all of your listed tools (it's a good list) are straight handled. While there is an advantage for straight handles in the alpine (so you can plunge the shaft), there really isn't an advantage on actual waterfall ice. Many prefer offset handled tools for actual ice (including myself).

If I were you, I would consider adding the Petzl Nomic, Cassin X-Dream, BD Fuel, and other similar tools to your list.

Honestly, for pure ice, it's hard to beat Nomics, X-Dreams, or Cobras (in no particular order).

Edit to add: DON'T GET AN ADZE. Seems like everyone makes this mistake on their first pair of technical tools. In 2015, you will be far more likely to give yourself a good sized face scar than chop a step. Hammers (or nothing, depending on the tool) for both tools. MAYBE an adze if you are doing a lot of serious alpine.

Noah Haber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 78
Jon H wrote: CONCLUSIONS UPDATED FOR 2015/2016 I do 90% of my climbing on X-Dreams. Love them. Never had so many one-swing sticks. This is my favorite all around tool I've ever climbed on. Their picks have lovely geometry, but soft, shitty steel. CAMP claims that the softer steel is "stickier" and thus more secure on mixed/dry moves, but they don't feel any more secure to me than Petzl or Grivel steel which lasts WAY longer. Luckily, CAMP picks are a good deal cheaper than any of the competitors, so it balances out. I would take X-Dreams pretty much anywhere short of a mellow alpine trip or ski mountaineering. Cham, Canmore, Cody, Hyalite, or Ouray... X-dreams would be my choice. Going to climb Liberty Ridge on Rainier.... probably the brand new black BD Vipers.
Agreed almost 100% here. LOVE the X-Dream for pure ice. However, for me, the X-Dream steel is so soft and shitty that I don't feel comfortable bringing them anywhere near scrappy mixed. They bend in very light torques, and dull severely at the lightest of taps against rock (which is inevitable). If Cassin/CAMP released a pick with harder/stronger steel, I would be SUPER happy. Wouldn't be such a problem if it were easy to field swap a pick (like the BD design, which doesn't require any additional tools, and no small parts), but the X-Dream pick attachment has 2 small parts and requires an allen wrench.

In my case, that isn't a real problem, as I also have BD fusions that I absolutely beat the crap out of without even a little hesitation. Some tasks are better done with a katana, others a great big battle axe.
Nick Sweeney · · Spokane, WA · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 969

I'm of the opinion that you really can't go wrong with any of the tools on your list, and I have climbed on most of them. I climb on Cassin X-Alls and I love them... One swing sticks almost every time. Cassin picks are cheap to replace and don't displace much ice, which is a big plus. I recommend looking at them or Cassin X-Dreams.

If you are planning on mostly moderate (WI3-4, M3-5) alpine stuff, I highly recommend BD Cobras or Cassin X-All Mountains. If you have your eye on WI5, get the X-Dreams.

And skip the Quarks, I don't know anyone who likes them when compared to other tools.

J. Serpico · · Saratoga County, NY · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 140

All modern tools will be fine. Some perform slightly better than others. In fact, the I picked up a set of Monsters brand new for $109 shipped while waiting for a good deal on Quantum Techs and while they don't feel quite as nice as QT or Cobras, they were absolutely fine and I expect to continue using them.

Before I decided on Quantum Techs I used everything and to me the Quantums are the best pure ice tool. The swings just feel good. I was talking with a partner about this and I said, it's not something you can explain, it just has this nice secure solid first stick feel that only the Cobra came close to matching. Grivel picks are really durable. I've had the same set on my Monsters for 1.5 seasons and expect to get another season out of them (they share the same pick as the QT/Matrix).

I also really liked the Cobra but the picks seemed to stick a lot. And most of my partners with BD picks complain about them. So I crossed those off my list. I'm sure you can modify the pick aggressively for it to clean better.

Basically, I agree with the guy that said get whatever is cheapest and sell it if you don't like it or think it's holding you back.

Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425
J. Serpico wrote:get another season out of them (they share the same pick as the QT/Matrix). I also really liked the Cobra but the picks seemed to stick a lot. And most of my partners with BD picks complain about them. So I crossed those off my list. I'm sure you can modify the pick aggressively for it to clean better.
I believe this is what you are referring to.
pic mods
Luc-514 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 12,506
J. Serpico wrote:I'm sure you can modify the pick aggressively for it to clean better.
Copy the tip of the X-All-Mountain and you're set!

I've got the Quarks, very agreeable tool, until you start pushing into the WI5 arena. I found the X-All Mountains to be superior than the Quarks for a tool built for the same purpose, though I find the pick material on the Petzl longer lasting than the Cassin (harder?).
Todd Anderson · · Santa Fe, NM · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 160

Get something cheap before the season starts. If you can get the weekend of Feb. 5-7 (Friday-Sunday) off, go to the Mount Washington Valley Ice Fest in/around North Conway, NH. You should be able to demo every tool on your list, with the likely exception of the Trango Raptors (Trango is not listed on the MWVIF site) and the possible exception of the Quantum Techs (Grivel might be pushing their new Machine line). You could probably sell your old tools to someone at the Ice Fest as well.

If only we had one of these in the PNW....

Mr Anderson · · Pittsburgh, PA · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 60

Good posts all around. Following thread as I'm looking at getting into ice climbing this year.

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
Mr.Andreson wrote:Good posts all around. Following thread as I'm looking at getting into ice climbing this year.
Make it a drinking game. Every time someone posts "Try as many tools as you can before you buy" or "Buy the boots that fit best", chug a beer.

When you sober up, take that advice.

Oh, and my $0.02, Trango Raptors are an amazing tool. You can buy them new for the price of beat-up Cobras or Nomics. And they climb at least as well. Stick more easily than the Nomics, and clean better than the Cobras IME.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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