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Edelrid Mega Jul?

Original Post
ChaseSmallwood · · Paris, TX · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 30

Just got a Edelrid Mega Jul in a lot of gear I bought from a buddy that is a tight spot. I already have a ton of belay devices, and might sell it. I have mostly BD gear, beside my GriGri 2. Is there anything special about this thing that I should hold on to it for. Seems like it could promote a lazy belay, especially with my wife that's pretty new to climbing. Don't want to build bad habits if I don't have to.

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

That MegaJul will make your girl way more lazy than the Grigri...

You should sell it to me :)

Systematic · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 317

I use a megajul and really like it. It's lighter, simpler, more functional, and more affordable than something like a grigri or an ATC guide. In terms of assisted breaking, it essentially works like a gri gri in that you don't have to pull hard on the break while your partner is taking a hang. Once it's locked no force is necessary. It can also be used to belay from the top in guide-mode (with relatively simple lowering) and for dual-strand rappelling. Rappelling can be done either in normal mode just like any other tube style device or in back-up mode, with the green thumb loop in front, which is nice if you expect to go hands free and don't have a prussik / etc. I have heard complaints about rope feeding during guide-mode belaying being strenuous compared to an ATC guide or reverso but I've never been bothered by it, although I haven't used those other devices for this purpose.

It's a nice all-purpose device. I think I'd still use it most of the time even if I owned a grigri / reverso / ATC guide.

Nick Drake · · Kent, WA · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 651

I love it for alpine climbing. If the route is a walk off bring one mega jul and a kong gigi. If there are rappels I replace the gigi with an ATC guide. The mega jul belays a follower ok for skinny ropes, but it still has a tad more drag than a reverso. Easy of pulling for a follower: gigi, ATC guide, reverso, mega jul.

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
Nick Drake wrote:Easy of pulling for a follower: gigi, Alpine smart, ATC guide, reverso, mega jul.
Get an alpine smart instead. If you do stick with the mega jul, use a big HMS with a smooth roundstock cross-section. Also keep in mind, the biner basically acts like the cam in a gri except its Al so the mega jul will wear out your biners faster than an ATC
Don Ferris III · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 186

I was a hardcore atc fanboy until I tried a mega jul. I'll never go back now. We anchor from two pieces, tie into two points and use locking carabiners for redundancy. One thing that is often not backed up is the belayer. If I pull a rock off and brain my belayer it's nice to know I might not die.

The mega jul works just like an atc while belaying and unlike the gri-gri, does not use a moving mechanism to pitch the rope. Gri-Gris are great and work fine (except you can't double rope rap) but it's the monkey that fucks it up.

Hiro Protagonist · · Colorado · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 290

I've been using mine in the gym, I like it quite a bit, even on the 10.x fat ropes. Considering selling my GriGri. Not sure if I will like it as a multipitch tool...

Rick Blair · · Denver · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 266

I like mine. Downside of the plaquette/guide mode for this is that you have to reverse the side of the device you belay from, the biner goes on top of the slots.

Traditionally with reverso, ATC guide, etc you could plaquette your second and then move your biner from the anchor to your belay loop and your are ready to go. You have to re-rig with the mega-jul. Once set up it belays a second smooth though.

There was a thread on here last year flaming the device for multipitch, the concern is belaying a leader and the leader takes a factor 2, the orientation change of the mega-Jul makes it hard to catch. I can't verify this, just FYI.

ChaseSmallwood · · Paris, TX · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 30

Well I've decided to sell the thing. $30 shipped to you. Anyone interested?

Nick Drake · · Kent, WA · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 651
eli poss wrote: Get an alpine smart instead. If you do stick with the mega jul, use a big HMS with a smooth roundstock cross-section. Also keep in mind, the biner basically acts like the cam in a gri except its Al so the mega jul will wear out your biners faster than an ATC
What did you like about the smart over the jul? Just belaying the second in autoblock? I hadn't tried it since the jul is lighter and smaller.

I have been using the new petzl attache to belay the leader, it is I beam, but has a nice radius for the rope. I made the mistake of trying a very squared off BD vapor before, when I had to pay out quickly for a high clip (using the thumb loop on the jul) it was a drag.
I have a metolius element that's fully round, but I rarely use it because of how many turns the stupid gate takes. I wish petzl still made the original attache.
eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525

I didn't like the mega jul over the alpine smart because of 3 reasons:

1 The guide mode sucked, whereas the smart is the 2nd smoothest devices, only surpassed by the Kong GiGi

2 Raps on the mega jul suck whereas, after a week or so, I can rap smoothly on the smart in autolocking rap mode

3 With both devices the rope/biner combo is crucial. The smart seemes to work well with both of my ropes and the mega jul really didn't like either of them.

For good roundstock biners I would suggest one of these: Petzl william, the old Petzl attache, a sterling falcon pearabiner or one of the older BD rocklocks

Also, keep in mind the mega jul, like the alpine smart, will wear out belay biners more quickly than an ATC because it pinches the rope against the biner much tighter, so an inexpensive locker is a good combination. I would try to find somebody selling some cheap used old petzl attaches

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
Nick Drake wrote: I have been using the new petzl attache to belay the leader, it is I beam, but has a nice radius for the rope. I made the mistake of trying a very squared off BD vapor before, when I had to pay out quickly for a high clip (using the thumb loop on the jul) it was a drag.
Wait...you were belaying a leader in GUIDE MODE?
Chris Reyes · · Seattle, WA · Joined Nov 2014 · Points: 40

Recently dropped mine about 200 ft and shattered the thumb loop (although the wire still seems to be in tact). I was looking for a replacement and was actually considering getting something like the pivot. While I enjoyed the autolock I was having such a hard time bringing up someone in guide mode with both thin double ropes and my 9.7 bluewater that I couldn't justify getting another. However, I was using bd neutrinos as the breaking biner. I'll have to give the thing a test with my rocklock and see if it improves at all.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

the megal jul, jul2 and the thicker (8.9-10.5mm) smart/alpine smart devices are unsuitable for belaying on ~9mm ropes despite it being "within" the manufacturers range

the DAV has shown in tests since 2010, and has recently done more tests which show ~ 0.5 KN of braking in a 8.9mm rope with those devices

DAV

if one must use an assisted locking device in that range ... use the smaller versions ... ie the microjul or the thin version of the alpine smart ... or use a grigri

basically the DAV folks said you wont catch a big high impact fall (doesnt mean the same as a big whipper with ALOT of rope out) on those devices with that rope size

as a comparison heres the values they got for tube style devices on a 9mm rope ...



i own all versions of the smart and personally i wouldnt go below 9.4/5 mm on the thicker versions ... and even then youll need to be careful ... just do a single line rap on a slick new 9.4mm and youll see why

which is why learning and staying current on tubes is so important ... when the braking slips and the rope starts running through the ONLY thing keeping yr partner off the deck with these devices on thinner ropes if your SOLID BRAKE HAND

;)
r m · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 0

I'd ditch the megajul personally. I gather it locks up hard under low forces, but under high force performs worse than devices like the ATC-XP (see previous discussions here for instance). If that is the case, I don't see the point in owning a megajul - catching low load falls is easy, it's the high load ones we need assistance with.

(Conjecture: Could using a device that provide much easier braking than an ATC-XP in low load forces, lead people to believe that it'll provide much easier braking than an ATC-XP in high load scenarios?)

Everybody needs to know how to use the tube devices first and foremost. Aside from those, perhaps grigris and munters. I don't think your wife will be any lessor for not being exposed to a relatively uncommon device with unintuitive performance characteristics and a reputation for breaking thumb loops.

Stephen Felker · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 552

I don't agreed with all y'all fuddy duddies and your insistence on belaying with the least forgiving belay devices available, as if it were a right of passage.

None of us is immune to human error, especially new belayers. The whole "I'm more comfortable with a traditional tube style device" is a mark of inexperience. You can take a hike IMHO; I'd rather trust my silent partner. I have too much first hand experience with belay flubs and ground falls to trust anything less. It all boils down to chance, and a mega jul (or gri-gri) will statistically catch more falls than an ATC in the hands of any human being, period. I and every other climber I know with over 5,000 hours of belay-end experience uses a brake assisted device of some sort.

r m · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 0
Stephen Felker wrote:...a mega jul (or gri-gri) will statistically catch more falls than an ATC in the hands of any human being, period.
Do you have a source for that statistic?

(I'm genuinely interested to know, I found this DAV study recently where they tried to measure the number of mistakes they considered people were making with various devices, but that's one step removed from a study of falls actually caught vs not.)
Stephen Felker · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 552
r m wrote: Do you have a source for that statistic?
Call my evidence anecdotal. But climbers on the more experienced end of the bell curve overwhelmingly prefer brake assisted belay devices (and for good reason).

Raw impact forces and small "n" controlled lab studies are only part of the equation. Available data is incomplete. Belay errors, as I have witnessed them over the years, even the serious ones, have been vastly underreported. I hypothesize that the science will catch up in another decade.

Dispense with the groupthink involved in the support of traditonal tube style devices over modern brake assisted devices! It's like claiming that antilock brakes or electronic stability control encourage lazy driving technique. No, they save lives and have become the standard in 21st century automotive technology.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Stephen, I think reality is a bit more nuanced than you are suggesting. Before saying more, I should add that although my age qualifies me as one of the fuddy-duddy's whose opinions you are trying to disqualify, I have been a proponent and almost continual user of some of the assisted locking devices for many years now (except in the gym, where I still use a modern tube.)

I do think it is a good idea to keep both eyes open about both the advantages and the drawbacks of various techniques however, and when you relegate tubes to nothing more than "a rite of passage," I think you've oversimplified for at least four reasons.

(1) At least some of the assisted braking devices have performance that may be severely affected by environmental conditions. Tubes are more reliable and may be the only choice for some circumstances. Climbers who might find themselves in adverse situations have some reasons to be more "comfortable" with a tube.

(2) The performance of some of the assisted-braking devices seems to depend critically on the combination of rope and carabiner used. (The Megajul is one of the devices in question here.) Habits developed with one gear combination o may turn out to be inappropriate with some other combination, and in some cases the device may simply not be adequate. The potential in this situation for nasty surprises seems to me to be significant.

(3) The probability of belay failure with tube devices decreases very significantly with experience. That probability may be higher for beginners, but it continues to go down. Assisted braking devices may have a lower probability of failure for beginners, but that probability, although low, doesn't go down with experience (or goes down much slower), because the failure modes of the assisted braking devices are arcane and far more likely to be unanticipated.

This means that whatever the situation for beginners, an experienced person with a gadget could in fact be more likely to suffer a catastrophic belay failure than an experienced person with a tube. This is pure speculation of course, but I don't find it implausible, and it seems to correspond to what I hear about belay accidents involving experienced climbers, which seem to involve dropping people with assisted braking devices but not with regular tubes. The recently-cited Cinch examples come to mind.

Technology can eliminate the role of experience, which is good for beginners, but in doing so can blunt the role of expertise in advancing safety. Given that the technology does have failure modes, and that they can be catastrophic, it is not so clear that trading something "less forgiving" for something "more forgiving" at the beginning stage is an optimal long-term strategy. This may be even more true if learning on "less forgiving" gear creates habits of attention that make the climber safer with subsequently-embraced technology.

(4) We are learning from Jim Titt's tests that devices that may perform well on falls with relatively low belay loads may perform poorly when the loads are very high, raising the question of how the concept of "forgiving" should be defined. For example, climbers who don't belay in multipitch situations cannot, even in theory, be subjected to the potentially high loads of a bad multipitch fall. "Forgiving" for the single-pitch belayer is not going to be the same thing as "forgiving" for the multipitch belayer.

As I've said, I'm at this point a long-time user of assisted braking devices, but the tubes still have their place and are hardly a some kind of fraternity stunt imposed on beginners before they can enter the club. Are you listening beginners? Learn your craft well to begin with, and as you progress choose the best tool for the job you have in mind.

Stephen Felker · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 552
rgold wrote:I think reality is a bit more nuanced than you are suggesting.
I agree. Just this week, as a result of a balancing of factors under a specific set of circumstances, I chose a munter hitch as my preferred belay "device". I could also name half a dozen people who have been dropped with a cinch.

A lot more goes into a good belay than just the device. My point is to challenge the base assumption (overwhelmingly presented by a vocal but inexpert segment of our populace) that tubes rule. In more circumstances than not, brake assisted devices offer everything an atc offers, plus an element of redundancy. Ultimately I think everyone (from 5.6 man to 5.14 droid) will flub the brake hand at some point, and I'd rather be on the sharp end with a mega jul or gri-gri when it happens.

rgold wrote:...my age qualifies me as one of the fuddy duddy's [sic]...
I disagree. Fuddy duddy is all a state of mind!
climber pat · · Las Cruces NM · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 286

I wish all the belay device manufacturers were required to publish a set of braking effeciency numbers.

I suspect that the numbers in the charts from the DAV do not tell the whole story. What I would like to see is the amount of rope slippage to stop a UIAA standard test fall. For example does the ATC-XP slip 1 foot and the ATC slip 1.5 feet before the fall's energy is absorbed. In which case I don't care. But if the ATC would slip 20 feet then I care a lot.

One thing I like about the Eldrid mega/micro jul, alpine smart, clickup is that after they lock up they no longer require the belayers hand. The tuber styles belay device continue require the belayer's hand to hold the fall. Also the grigri continues to require the belayers hand because it can become unlocked if the rope becomes unweighted (because of the spring loaded cam).

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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