Belaying accident and aftermath

Healyje wrote: You're kidding yourself. The "5.13 gear sends & 5.14 bolted sends by the working stiffs" is another delusion - it may happen a lot, but it's still an incredibly small percentage of the total demographic.

Everybody likes some flattery, but I'm having a real hard time accepting I'm that "special".

Healyje wrote: And style and training are two entirely different things.

I understand that. But it is pretty obvious to me rigid adherence to a style can inhibit development of the sport (well, you may think they are completely different sports). I hate to keep bringing up Steve Hong but his movement style (very static) is a product the climbing style he started with and he said as much that he can learn from his son who grew up in an era where dynamic movements are encouraged, since the prevalent climbing style did not dish harsh penalty for doing so.

Healyje wrote: You're kidding yourself. The "5.13 gear sends & 5.14 bolted sends by the working stiffs" is another delusion - it may happen a lot, but it's still an incredibly small percentage of the total demographic. And style and training are two entirely different things. The training thing is just something which appeals to certain personalities; there's plenty of people who pull just as hard without any formalized training at all. As for the juniors, we all climb on the shoulders of those who came before us - that some of those people are your parents is that much of a leg up. So is starting earlier in many cases. But, without the upfront filtering mechanism, it's still the case today's top climbers are surfacing from a comparatively huge sieve.

Totally delusional as usual Healyje. I have several friends (4) who have pulled 5.14 while placing gear, and the number of friends who have done that with 5.13 are too numerous to count. Their ages span 25-40. However, I am sure you will continue to convince yourself that mediocre is fantastic, as you always do.

I just hope that people aren't listening to your defense of the Cinch and realize that most of the climbing community has already disavowed this device because it has an unexplained history of failure.

J Q wrote: I just hope that people aren't listening to your defense of the Cinch and realize that most of the climbing community has already disavowed this device because it has an unexplained history of failure.

"Most of the climbing community"? That's quite the assertion!

Whoops, I meant to stay away from this pissing match.

reboot wrote: Everybody likes some flattery, but I'm having a real hard time accepting I'm that "special".

Screw that, I am most definitely a beautiful and unique snowflake. My Mommy told me so when I was a wee one.

reboot wrote:I hate to keep bringing up Steve Hong but his movement style (very static) is a product the climbing style he started with and he said as much that he can learn from his son who grew up in an era where dynamic movements are encouraged, since the prevalent climbing style did not dish harsh penalty for doing so.

Well, as I said, I came up in the 70's in a relative backwater down in the hollows where we pretty much made it up as we went along, but the main characteristic of our climbing was that it was all about the monkey, throwing for things, no hands hangs and having our feet higher than our heads as often as humanly possible.

J Q wrote: I have several friends (4) who have pulled 5.14 while placing gear, and the number of friends who have done that with 5.13 are too numerous to count. Their ages span 25-40. However, I am sure you will continue to convince yourself that mediocre is fantastic, as you always do.

And, again, you are all a vanishingly small percentage of the total demographic who will put on a harness this year.

[ Edit: Oh, and I personally find difficulty for difficulty's sake blindingly stupid and boring and it has never entered into my calculus of the routes I've put up. My sole criteria is that it grab my eye and cause me to obsess over it for whatever reason - could be easy, could be hard, but difficulty is largely irrelevant to me even though some of the climbs we put up in the mid-70s have been uprated to 12's or 13s depending on who your talk to. ]

J Q wrote:I just hope that people aren't listening to your defense of the Cinch and realize that most of the climbing community has already disavowed this device because it has an unexplained history of failure.

Also yet again, for those with reading comprehension issues, I am neither defending nor endorsing the cinch, but rather saying it's possible to belay with one without incident if you understand its strengths and weaknesses and act accordingly. Does that require extra energy and vigilance which some may not be capable of, find inconvenient or otherwise annoying? Sure. I did and immediately ditched it on first evaluation when it came out.

J Q wrote: Totally delusional as usual Healyje. I have several friends (4) who have pulled 5.14 while placing gear, and the number of friends who have done that with 5.13 are too numerous to count. Their ages span 25-40. However, I am sure you will continue to convince yourself that mediocre is fantastic, as you always do. I just hope that people aren't listening to your defense of the Cinch and realize that most of the climbing community has already disavowed this device because it has an unexplained history of failure.

So now we're all mediocre climbers if we're not pulling 5.13 and 14?

I also love all the grade dropping going on here. I pulled some 10b and c at Shelf last weekend, it was epic. This last page of this thread is how I imagine it is walking around the Front Range.

mediocre wrote: So now we're all mediocre climbers if we're not pulling 5.13 and 14? I also love all the grade dropping going on here. I pulled some 10b and c at Shelf last weekend, it was epic. This last page of this thread is how I imagine it is walking around the Front Range.

Kind of, yes. There are a lot of solid 5.11 & 5.12 climbers these days. So embrace the mediocrity, I know I do!

mediocre wrote: So now we're all mediocre climbers if we're not pulling 5.13 and 14? I also love all the grade dropping going on here. I pulled some 10b and c at Shelf last weekend, it was epic. This last page of this thread is how I imagine it is walking around the Front Range.

yep, the truth hurts doesn't it. As soon as you can accept the truth life gets a whole lot easier.

single batch pickle juice!! well done, sir!!!!

JohnnyG wrote: so here's what the data say, with a little help from excel... Tube style belay devices were more likely involved in accidents than grigis. No data on the Cinch. Grigri was the safest device. The numbers: Tube style devices were used by 56% of the gym climbers but account for 67% of the accidents. The percent of accidents normalized by percent of users = 1.2 In contrast, Grigris were used by 14% of the gym climbers but account for 7% of accidents. The percent of accidents normalized by percent of users = 0.5 here's a table,

Interesting table.

How many users wee involved, to give some idea of statistical significance?

I really wish people would stop with the ad hominem attacks as it adds nothing to an argument or this discussion.

The problems with people being dropped (imo) has little to do with the devices used and everything to do with the belayers and some devices need a more experienced belayer than others... Our sport has seen a rapid increase in participants and is flooded with newbies. Newbies that have little experience and are often trained in a social environment that leads to a false sense of security. They often have no clue what really happens in a bad fall and the forces involved.

Modern belay devices are all in fact safer (imo) than old hip belays but primarily they are *more convenient* and allow more inattention and create a false sense of complacency. Sport/Gym climbing does contribute to this as falls and hanging are so commonplace rather than the rare and more serious occurrence BITD. Then, you knew a fall was gonna suck and you paid attention.

This is not the fault of the devices. But the fact that I am 6'2" and 220 lbs is contributing to my feelings on this topic. I am uncomfortable with anything that doesn't assist the belayer (ie all mechanical aids) because I generate a load .

I have been dropped by hip belays, tubes and gri-gris...I have never dropped anyone. All were belayer error.

Hip belay, a moment's inattention and you are in no position to stop someone if that brake hand comes off. But obviously, done right, they have stopped famous falls. Totally impractical today, imo. I am not 135 lbs....

Tubes, a moment's inattention and their may be a moment to correct a mistake albeit with rope burns or cuts but at least the rope is still in front of you to grab so it is under more control than a hip belay. Many no have features to belay seconds very safely off the anchor which I greatly prefer.

Gri-Gri, imo, the most forgiving of inattention (I have never heard of the cam failing to engage unless the belayer holds the cam down or grips the rope above the device), but is susceptible to "panic" on the belayers part lowering or when the leader falls and they clutch at the device preventing it from properly doing it's job. This is being partly addressed in the gri-gri 3....coming this spring. Of course the chance of false security/complacency is it's own pitfall.

Anyways, my opinion is that the perfect "fool proof" device is only as good as the person using it and with perfect application a gri-gri is my choice. However making sure your belayer is totally committed and paying attention to you and trained up on their job is gonna save lives and legs etc...no matter the data or device used.