Mountain Project Logo

Belaying accident and aftermath

Matt Wilson · · Vermont, USA · Joined May 2010 · Points: 316

Look, I've never used a cinch, but from what I have gathered, it sounds like most people who use an autoblocking belay device have a habit of relying on the autoblocking function. How many incidents where someone was dropped with a cinch did the belayer have terrible rope burns on their hands because they had their hand on the break end of the rope before, during, and after the fall? If you are dropped, it is ultimately because your belayer was not holding the break end of the rope, end of story. And if you rely on your device to autoblock, you have no business belaying, because you are an accident waiting to happen. I just pray that when you finally drop someone, they aren't injured or killed.

A grigri is objectively safer than an ATC for catching falls because it will *usually* cover for belayer error. But if the belayer relies on the device to autoblock, then safety has gone out the window, and you are playing russian routlette

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35
Matt Wilson wrote:And if you rely on your device to autoblock, you have no business belaying, because you are an accident waiting to happen.
What you fail to realize, is that if the autoblock gets defeated in any way, it's not a belay device. It would take a knot in the rope to stop it once it starts zipping through. You haven't used the Cinch though, so I guess we shouldn't expect you to know what you're talking about.

Yes, there are stories of rope burns. Even in this thread. Is that the proof you needed?
Matt Wilson · · Vermont, USA · Joined May 2010 · Points: 316
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote: What you fail to realize, is that if the autoblock gets defeated in any way, it's not a belay device. It would take a knot in the rope to stop it once it starts zipping through. You haven't used the Cinch though, so I guess we shouldn't expect you to know what you're talking about. Yes, there are stories of rope burns. Even in this thread. Is that the proof you needed?
If a belay device cannot function without the autoblock engaging, it is a shitty belay device and should never be used.
Bill C. · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 110
Matt Wilson wrote:Look, I've never used a cinch, but from what I have gathered, it sounds like most people who use an autoblocking belay device have a habit of relying on the autoblocking function. How many incidents where someone was dropped with a cinch did the belayer have terrible rope burns on their hands because they had their hand on the break end of the rope before, during, and after the fall? If you are dropped, it is ultimately because your belayer was not holding the break end of the rope, end of story. routlette
This is incorrect, as I can assure you, you most certainly CAN drop someone with your break hand on the rope. In my opinion, this is the most critical design flaw of the whole device.
Russ Keane · · Salt Lake · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 392

"a decline in average belay performance."

Whatever --- If anything people today are hyper-cautious about climbing. All the clothing, the gear, the route info, the training, preparation, discussion (all of which aka "beta"). Even the proliferation of gym climbing could be argued to enhance the safety factor, since they teach you belaying and give you a chance to practice. People today are so goddam precise and uptight about every single aspect of life, let alone climbing.

My impression of the 70s scene is a bunch of bearded outdoorsy people in jean shorts downing cans of beer, camping, dicking around, having fun, not worrying about a damn thing. (ie, Awesome!) ... Or perhaps a handful of hard-asses who would grab any old friend from town and throw them on belay so they could get a few first ascents in the books.

Plus- Don't forget, with the internet you hear about EVERY single little episode .... So of course it seems like more shit is happening, when in fact it's just that back in the day, belay accidents would happen but not turn into broadcast news on a message board.

christopher adams · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 0
Russ Keane wrote:"So it's must be random miracles which just lined up perfect for us three old guys such that we've managed to climb for about a hundred and twenty years between us and 'shit never happened' relative to dropping or being dropped. Either that, or there is something fundamentally and profoundly different about what's going on in climbing today. I'm personally voting for the latter" Or...... It could be the sheer increase in numbers? Lots more people= lots more probability.
I'll throw another 18 climbing years onto their numbers- used figure 8's, hip belays, ATC, Reverso, Gri-Gri, Cinch... never dropped anyone.

It's about paying attention.
Matt Wilson · · Vermont, USA · Joined May 2010 · Points: 316
Jake Jones wrote: And that is the heart of the issue.
I can't understand how this is even an issue, then. This is like designing a car that will burst in to flames if you ever run out of windshield wiper fluid.
christopher adams · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 0
Jake Jones wrote: I couldn't disagree more. With climbing becoming more akin to conventional sports- i.e. more prevalent sponsorships, marketing, used as a marketing tool, etc. people tend to treat it as such. I see a goddamned disaster waiting to happen almost every night I go into my gym, either to work or climb- and almost as many outside- and I've never been to the Red. Tuesday night I saw a couple, girl on lead, guy belaying, taking practice falls. She was taking 15 foot falls where this guy would just brace for them and she would slam into the wall. He knew no better. I routinely see people belaying climbers that are on routes that look difficult for them with enough slack in the rope for a groundfall up to the third bolt and sometimes beyond. I see people take brake hands off all the time. I see people having conversations and not paying attention all the time. I've see people attempt to belay off gear loops. I've seen people attempt to take a climber off belay and put someone else on while the climber is still on the wall- and this is just scratching the surface. Hyper-cautious is the EXACT ANTITHESIS of how one should describe climbers as a whole today with regard to vigilance and regular practices of risk management.
I agree Jake.

I'd like to step up on the soap box for a minute and encourage everyone to reflect on the serious nature of this 'sport' we all love.

When climbing, even at a gym, you are responsible for your own life and the lives of those climbing with you.

If that fact is neglected with a momentary lapse of vigilance, you or your partners can die.

If you don't respect that fact, if you question that fact even an iota, you don't belong in this 'sport'.
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Healyje wrote: Grigris really aren't about the climbing at all, they're all about the hanging...But, the reality is, sport dogging or not, I can belay as well and as reliably with no device as you can with the device of your choice. That's because once that rope is in your hands your responsibility is no different today than it was bitd.
Set aside your well known disdain for the current preferred mode of climbing (which I find no more or less peculiar than BITD; it's an artificial game). While the responsibility hasn't changed, the requirements for sport belaying have increased over BITD. To be a great belayer, you need to not short rope (yeah, I've climbed w/ old dudes who I trust won't drop me, but fuck it feels like I'll just get pulled off the wall b/c they can't predict when I'm going to clip), take on a moment of notice, lock the rope off for an extended period of time at a time, and then rinse/repeat for an hour or longer...what I'm saying is, it's a way more protracted and tedious process than belaying someone on an onsight attempt.

I'm sure you'll start with your hyper-vigilance, but at some point you'll get way exhausted, quit belaying someone dogging a route, or let your mind slip a bit, even if there are no other distractions around.
JohnnyG · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 10
Katie Church wrote: My question for the forum is whether anyone else has 1) been through a similar experience; 2) knows anyone else who has; and 3) has any advice or words of counsel for my friend. Please help!
To answer these question

1. I've never dropped anyone. But I bet all the old farts, like me, have made other mistakes where luckily no one was hurt.

2. a close friend dropped his buddy on a cinch (very experienced and safe belayer). Say what you will about attentiveness, the cinch is fine, the old ways, etc...but the cinch seems to have a lot of anecdotal evidence of people being dropped, much more than other devices. Just look at this thread. My opinion: it's time to phase out the cinch, let it go the way of belaying with a figure 8.

3. No harm, no foul. Lots of others have made mistakes climbing and still climb, so get back climbing if it's still fun. Others have been in accidents and stopped. Either way it's fine.
christopher adams · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 0
reboot wrote: Set aside your well known disdain for the current preferred mode of climbing (which I find no more or less peculiar than BITD; it's an artificial game). While the responsibility hasn't changed, the requirements for sport belaying have increased over BITD. To be a great belayer, you need to not short rope (yeah, I've climbed w/ old dudes who I trust won't drop me, but fuck it feels like I'll just get pulled off the wall b/c they can't predict when I'm going to clip), take on a moment of notice, lock the rope off for an extended period of time at a time, and then rinse/repeat for an hour or longer...what I'm saying is, it's a way more protracted and tedious process than belaying someone on an onsight attempt. I'm sure you'll start with your hyper-vigilance, but at some point you'll get way exhausted, quit belaying someone dogging a route, or let your mind slip a bit, even if there are no other distractions around.
Ground up onsite Trad tactics often involved literally hours of the following: the leader climbing to a crux, downclimbing to rest or find better gear, and repeating- Not to mention bolting on lead from a stance, and the time involved with actual route finding.

The belayer had to be hypervigilant during all of this.
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
christopher adams wrote: Ground up onsite Trad tactics often involved literally hours of the following: the leader climbing to a crux, downclimbing to rest or find better gear, and repeating- Not to mention bolting on lead from a stance, and the time involved with actual route finding. The belayer had to be hypervigilant during all of this.
Sometimes, but it's pretty easy to figure out when you need to let out rope, reel them in, when you can lock off the rope (w/o actually weighing it). That's also besides the fact people almost never fall (& the very static movements also makes it way easier to spot a fall). This shit is way less draining.
Thomas Stryker · · Chatham, NH · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

38 years climbing, trad and ice, occasionally sport, do not own or want any device more specialized than an ATC, never been dropped and never dropped anyone. I really do not think I had ever heard of anyone being dropped until the mid eighties or later.

Remarkable really that Rich Romano and John Long both survived hundreds of bold leads just to be dropped by a belayer.

My guess would be back in the day if you dropped someone, you'd be a pariah, but again can't recall a single instance.

I know I will get flamed for this, but climbing really isn't a sport for "everyman". It requires a level of diligence not everyone can muster and maintain.

Thomas Stryker · · Chatham, NH · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

Maybe Jake, in the gym, is that right? I don't follow that stuff very closely so you may be right, in which case my bad, but the point still stands, really good climbers have been dropped doing stuff that should have been relatively safe.

I don't amend any posts that I make that are wrong as it leads to confusion for people following a thread, hope that's okay.

frank minunni · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined May 2011 · Points: 95
JohnnyG wrote: To answer these question 1. I've never dropped anyone. But I bet all the old farts, like me, have made other mistakes where luckily no one was hurt.
I think you're spot on here. Over the course of a long climbing career, or any other for that matter, mistakes will happen. That was my point earlier just before getting flamed.
A good example is driving. Even if you're an excellent and attentive driver, over the years there are those times when you look back and think, "Man I got away with one there." I'm not saying accept the mistakes, with a shrug. It's more trying your hardest to avoid them and if they do happen, learn from them.
Thomas Stryker · · Chatham, NH · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

Oh. So are you saying people aren't really getting dropped much?

frank minunni · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined May 2011 · Points: 95
Tim Lutz wrote:thread summary so far: Healyj and RGold are Chuck Norrises in bellbottoms and the rest of you sport dog hangin Cinchn Gri'n gym wankers need NOT apply to hip belay school. ...yer gunna die!
What is your problem dude? I don't know HealyJ but I do know RGold and RGold is a thoughtful, extremely bright individual who just happens to have years of climbing experience and knowledge. He always posts well thought out ideas with nothing but good intention.

So far, the only things I've ever seen you post are smarmy little one liners that add nothing to the conversation in you lame attempts at humor. Humor is good and certainly seems to be lacking here at times, but it should have some measure thought and relevence. And directing such banalities at others isn't necessary.
Parker Wrozek · · Denver, CO · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 86

I feel for your friend. I was invloved in a three close calls in the last 2 years. ATC used for all.

First was a friend that blew a clip above a ledge and landed on the ledge. I was belaying. I was able to pull out enough slack that that he basically did a big squat to absorb the landing. He finished the route. We talked when he got down and concluded we both did the best we could and glad he wasn't hurt.

Second was a friend on a route that traveresed left between two lines with one bolt on the traverse. He clipped the top of the first line and started to go left. For some reason he skipped the traverse bolt. He climbed fine to the next bolt though. At this point I was very nevous in my belay as there was a ledge that he had potential of hitting due to skipping the bolt. I shortened everything up the best I could. He grabbed a draw and noticed he skipped a bolt, freaked out and fell. As soon as he started to go I ran/hopped/jumped whatever I could back as fast as possible. It was a hard catch but he stayed off the ledge by about a foot. He went on to send the route. Conclusion was a big hug and a don't skip the pro next time.

Third one was tuesday in the gym. My partner did what you might call a critical drop from the 5th bolt. Granted I was mid clip and pulling about a foot of rope above my tie in points. But because she was feeding or whatever she did not clamp he hand down good and I fell past her as she went up and ended up just off the ground, as in i sucked up my legs to stay off it and could just stand there at the end. she got a decent amount of rope burn. She feels bad and I keep getting texts from her about it. Not sure if a Grigri would have helped or not but it would have hopefully locked and she would have clamped harder.

Basically I think all situations got resolution which is what your friend is lacking in this scenario. Things happen and being able to talk it over with the person and get closure helps. Your friend will need to get over it at some point and move on. Practice belaying more, realize no one was hurt, and go enjoy it. If they can go talk to the person it will help I think.

Matt Wilson · · Vermont, USA · Joined May 2010 · Points: 316
frank minunni wrote: What is your problem dude? I don't know HealyJ but I do know RGold and RGold is a thoughtful, extremely bright individual who just happens to have years of climbing experience and knowledge. He always posts well thought out ideas with nothing but good intention. So far, the only things I've ever seen you post are smarmy little one liners that add nothing to the conversation in you lame attempts at humor. Humor is good and certainly seems to be lacking here at times, but it should have some measure thought and relevence. And directing such banalities at others isn't necessary.
He is a troll, and you just broke rule #1 of the internet by feeding him.
frank minunni · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined May 2011 · Points: 95
Matt Wilson wrote: He is a troll, and you just broke rule #1 of the internet by feeding him.
Sorry I didn't know that rule. I'll keep that in mind.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Injuries and Accidents
Post a Reply to "Belaying accident and aftermath"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.