Belaying accident and aftermath

Paul Hassett wrote:Completely agree with you - that method does work. I guess my issue with it, is that ideally you should be able to feed the rope without holding down the cam, as also detailed in both the videos and posters. In essence, you have to "defeat" the device to feed quickly, which I would suggest is a design issue in and of itself. The whole reason to not consistently belay with your thumb on the cam is that it places the leader at risk should they fall. That being said, I can generally use the tube method once more rope is out.

Almost all the assisted camming devices I think rely on a "defeat" to use them, including the smart and mega jul. I don't consider it a design flaw because it isn't some sort of locked in position, its a matter of a deliberate movement or action that is easily released.

csproul wrote: 3) I think that the vast majority of the time, if there were no hand on the brake-side rope of a Grigri, it would still lock up (I am not recommending that anyone actually do this). I don't believe this to be true for the Cinch

Well, this is irrelevant unless what we're reviewing here is which device best compensates for incompetence and a lack of mastery. And even in that case, the very thing one would applaud the grigri for is exactly what meshes badly with human nature to breed the circumstances of today's rampant dropping of climbers with its use.

reboot wrote: You keep comparing the Cinch to a Grigri, so I can only assume you've not used one or understand how it operates... The Petzl statement does not apply to a Cinch in the same way it applies to a Grigri: A Cinch will only guarantee to lock if there's rope brake tension AND tension against the device (through the attached carabiner).

I know exactly how both operate and have belayed and lead roped-soloed on both. The bottom line is that without good brake hand management you're ultimately going to fail with both devices and both companies repeatedly emphasize that point in their technical literature.

The fact that the cinch has the straight-thru design feature and an entirely different locking approach compared to the grigri is exactly why it's not typically a device chosen by newbs.

But all this discussion around the device is so much hand-wringing. I can belay endlessly with a cinch and never drop anyone. I can do the same with no device or the device of your choice. That's because it's not about the device, it's about me. And if you can't figure out how to do the same with any belay technique you decide on then you are out of your depth and shouldn't be belaying that way.

Several generations of climbers in Southern Illinois belayed endless climbs this way in the 60's and 70's:



And guess what? No one was ever dropped, ever - no one.

The problem with the rampant belay failures today is due to the combination of an over-reliance on the false assurances of autoblocking devices and the distracted behaviors they unavoidably breed - i.e. the most deficient design 'feature' of all such devices is the fact that humans by their very nature are lazy and easily distracted. They are especially so after endless repetitions of a task where they are told they must remain what appears to be pointlessly vigilant given how 'reliable' the device they're using is. And, so exposed to the repetitious boredom, that vigilance invariably fades in the large majority of climbers today leaving them prey to bad things happening either by situational circumstance, by inadequate mastery of the belay device / technique, or simply by an unlucky random draw of a bad card in life.

Is the cinch a great device - fuck no, I wouldn't use one by choice. But when I do use one, you're not going to be dropped under any circumstance.

P.S. Hey, Bill - how many people have you dropped over your ancient career? How about you rgold - how many have you dropped in your 50+ years? How about you Frank - how many? Any other old-timers here? How many people have you dropped?

Hi again, everyone...

I want to thank you all for your responses and also draw this forum to a close. I never meant for my post to devolve into an argument about whether the Cinch is a good device, how it compares to the Gri-Gri, or about the particulars of how these devices are meant to work. I just wanted to help my friend.

To clarify, my friend has been lead climbing both sport and on gear for about 8 years, and spends most of his free time doing so. He is one of my best and most reliable partners. Yes, he was lead-belaying. I don't know the orientation of the route to the ledge involved. I agree that the man he was belaying should have gotten back to him; I think it would have helped significantly. No, of course Trango wouldn't talk down their own product.

For the record, I use a Cinch for gym and sport belaying. I once dropped my climber further than he should have fallen in the gym, and now I always have one hand above, cramming the rope in the device, and one hand below, to brake it. I love it. It's true that the rope is pretty much in a straight line inside the device, when not cammed.

Thanks especially to the thoughtful responses and questions from Jen H, Kenr, Christopher Gibson, Alex Washburne, Kiri Namtvedt, Morgan Patterson, Scott M McNamara, TSluiter, Todd Cook, and Todd Ra.

Katie Church wrote:I never meant for my post to devolve...

It's really not a matter of devolving. It simply gets to the heart of a statistic and reality today that no one really likes to look at or delve into and stirs strong emotions which it should.

Hey, Katie, the vast bulk of posters on here at least support the idea that a cinch can be tricky. The majority also support the idea that mistakes can happen, even if only by others, never themselves. More than a few would probably also support the idea that stuff just happens, sometimes, not always clearcut. It sounds like the climber wasn't hurt very badly, which could mean it wasn't much of a fall. As was pointed out by someone or other, a lead fall onto a ledge isn't exactly hard to accomplish, even with a really sharp belayer doing everything right. Was your friend texting, falling down drunk, sound asleep, fingers up his nose? No? He did his best, something went wrong, with minor damage to someone else, a climber who chose to lead climb a route with a ledge. Your friend changed the part he could (the unknown involvement of the cinch), clearly cares deeply about doing a good job, clearly is totally willing to consider his own actions, think it through, accept responsibilty and take steps to improve. What the hell else more does anyone on here want of a climbing partner? Tell him at least one of us here thinks he is probably an even better partner now, and into the future. Save the big guilt for the really big mistakes. Sadly, most of us have a few of those, if we're honest. This was probably not one of them. All the best to both of you! : )

Healyje wrote: The bottom line is that without good brake hand management you're ultimately going to fail with both devices and both companies repeatedly emphasize that point in their technical literature.

I never disputed that, but that by itself does not engage the locking mechanism like a Grigri. It's only a necessary but not sufficient condition.

Healyje wrote: Several generations of climbers in Southern Illinois belayed endless climbs this way in the 60's and 70's:

So before sport climbing or hang dogging...got it...come back with something still relevant.

Healyje wrote:P.S. Hey, Bill - how many people have you dropped over your ancient career? How about you rgold - how many have you dropped in your 50+ years? How about you Frank - how many? Any other old-timers here? How many people have you dropped?

I've never dropped anyone, and as some of you know I've managed to catch factor-2 falls with both a hip belay and an ATC. During the first half of my 58 years of climbing, I never heard of anyone being dropped---it just didn't happen. But we were climbing trad with widely-spaced pro, so there were a lot fewer leader falls. And in the early days we top-roped with the belayer at the top, not at the bottom, belaying as we would belay the second on a multipitch climb. This would seem to be more prone to errors, but it didn't turn out that way. One big difference is that the belayer was up at the top with no one else around, so they had nothing to do but their job.

60's hip belay (no gloves, eek...)



Top-roping BITD

37 years and never dropped a soul. Wanted to a couple of times, but didn't yield to the temptation.
And Rich. I was looking at those pictures. You better be careful. That climbing stuff looks dangerous.

frank minunni wrote:Leader or TR, as long as they're attentive, I'm good with it. I've been dropped a few times and it was never due to sitting. It was always due to the belayer bullshitting with someone.

Your post from another thread...you've never dropped anyone, but you've been dropped a few times? ;)

csproul wrote: Your post from another thread...you've never dropped anyone, but you've been dropped a few times? ;)

That's right. I never dropped anyone. And I've never been dropped to the ground.

reboot wrote:So before sport climbing or hang dogging...got it...come back with something still relevant.

Well you hit the nail on the head there. Grigris really aren't about the climbing at all, they're all about the hanging. Hell, you do have to wonder how sport climbing ever got off the ground in the eighties without them.

And now that 'climbing' for most people has been reduced to a tedious loop of otherwise safe 'hang-hang-hang-redpoint-next' entertainment I find myself having to agree with you - the old ways, tools and techniques of ground-up, onsight climbing are pretty much totally irrelevant to the vast majority of you.

But, the reality is, sport dogging or not, I can belay as well and as reliably with no device as you can with the device of your choice. That's because once that rope is in your hands your responsibility is no different today than it was bitd. The only difference is we knew what the fuck we were doing and didn't let devices define our belaying or climbing.

rgold wrote:I've never dropped anyone...

frank minunni wrote:37 years and never dropped a soul.

So it must be random miracles which just lined up perfect for us three old guys such that we've managed to climb for about a hundred and twenty years between us and 'shit never happened' relative to dropping or being dropped. Either that, or there is something fundamentally and profoundly different about what's going on in climbing today. I'm personally voting for the latter (no surprise there...). And from where I sit the worst possible outcome of all this is for people to shrug their shoulders, ignore the fact people are dropping like flies, and just say "eh, shit happens - whatdayagonnadoaboutit?"

Healyje wrote: Well you hit the nail on the head there. Grigris really aren't about the climbing at all, they're all about the hanging. Hell, you do have to wonder how sport climbing ever got off the ground in the eighties without them. And now that 'climbing' for most people has been reduced to a tedious loop of otherwise safe 'hang-hang-hang-redpoint-next' entertainment I find myself having to agree with you - the old ways, tools and techniques of ground-up, onsight climbing are pretty much totally irrelevant to the vast majority of you. But, the reality is, sport dogging or not, I can belay as well and as reliably with no device as you can with the device of your choice. That's because once that rope is in your hands your responsibility is no different today than it was bitd. The only difference is we knew what the fuck we were doing and didn't let devices define our belaying or climbing. So it's must be random miracles which just lined up perfect for us three old guys such that we've managed to climb for about a hundred and twenty years between us and 'shit never happened' relative to dropping or being dropped. Either that, or there is something fundamentally and profoundly different about what's going on in climbing today. I'm personally voting for the latter (no surprise there...). And from where I sit the worst possible outcome of all this is for people to shrug their shoulders, ignore the fact people are dropping like flies, and just say "eh, shit happens - whatdayagonnadoaboutit?"

I am now referring to the current sport climbing tactics as "boltering".

"So it's must be random miracles which just lined up perfect for us three old guys such that we've managed to climb for about a hundred and twenty years between us and 'shit never happened' relative to dropping or being dropped. Either that, or there is something fundamentally and profoundly different about what's going on in climbing today. I'm personally voting for the latter"

Or...... It could be the sheer increase in numbers? Lots more people= lots more probability.

I personally stopped allowing myself to be belayed by a cinch in 2008 when I saw an accident with an experienced belayer who is a guide and he could not describe what he had done wrong to drop his partner. He claimed the device didn't engage. For climbers who are consistently falling outside day after day week after week, the cinch is more dangerous than a gri gri.

J Q wrote:I personally stopped allowing myself to be belayed by a cinch in 2008 when I saw an accident with an experienced belayer who is a guide and he could not describe what he had done wrong to drop his partner. He claimed the device didn't engage. For climbers who are consistently falling outside day after day week after week, the cinch is more dangerous than a gri gri.

Sounds like his mistake was relying on the device to engage.

Russ Keane wrote:"So it's must be random miracles which just lined up perfect for us three old guys such that we've managed to climb for about a hundred and twenty years between us and 'shit never happened' relative to dropping or being dropped. Either that, or there is something fundamentally and profoundly different about what's going on in climbing today. I'm personally voting for the latter" Or...... It could be the sheer increase in numbers? Lots more people= lots more probability.

If the probability went up then Joe is right. I think you mean "lots more numbers and same probability of failure = lots more occurrences."

I try not to indulge in hectoring reminiscences on how everything was better BITD, but my gut impression is that Joe is fundamentally right about this. The increase in belay failures is not simply a reflection of a bigger participant base, but in fact represents a decline in the reliability of the average belayer. The social environment at the belay position, modern climbing styles involving a large number of inconsequential falls, the use of technology with potentially catastrophic gotcha's, and the abandoning of serious belay training are probably all contributing factors.

In fact, given all these influences, it would be surprising if there wasn't a decline in average belay performance. It is interesting but not surprising, in our technology-obsessed culture, that people seem to look to yet more technology to fix problems that in part were brought by technology. The idea, embraced implicitly in Joe's comments, that the solution might lie in better training of belayers doesn't seem to engender a whole lot of enthusiasm.

Jake Jones wrote: What I was saying was more to address the "my buddy belayed fine with a GriGri for years then picked up a Cinch and catastrophe ensued" accounts.

Just so that you're aware, these aren't the accounts that bother me at all, obviously going to a new device can potentially lead to problems. The accounts that bother me are the ones where a belayer has been using a cinch for many years, caught many falls with a cinch, and then one day drops someone without having any idea what happened. I know I've seen or heard of at least 10 of this type of accident occurring over the years and this is what makes me wary of the cinch.

rgold wrote: ... The increase in belay failures is not simply a reflection of a bigger participant base, but in fact represents a decline in the reliability of the average belayer. The social environment at the belay position, modern climbing styles involving a large number of inconsequential falls, the use of technology with potentially catastrophic gotcha's, and the abandoning of serious belay training are probably all contributing factors.

This is true, and goes back to a quick I've said for years, "if you try to make something idiot-proof, then idiots will use it." On a similar note, at the RRG's Muir Valley, safety, user experience, and accessibility are all top priority. Routes are closely bolted, featherbagged, and ample trails and signs make it easy for everyone to go climbing there. And you know what? Look in any recent issue of ANAM and you'll see that this place has more accidents than nearly any other climbing area in the nation.

But, I think that there is a specific problem with the cinch. Nobody has dropped detailed numbers yet, but I think we all agree that this device has a LOT of accidents associated with it in comparison to the relatively small proportion of climbers who use it.

I think that, user error or not, the problem with the cinch is this: it does not operate like a grigri. The grigri is a logical extension of time-tested ATC-style tube devices. You always tell a first time gri gri user "when in doubt, treat it like an ATC and you'll be fine." You can't say that for the cinch, and whether it is safe or not, its operation is such a significant deviation from decades of belaying style that it confuses folks, and deaths have resulted.

Gut impressions are often wrong. Hard stats on the number of climbers over the last 40 or 50 years are hard to come by but based on my personal experiences in North Carolina there are probably ten times as many people climbing now as there were 15 years ago. I can't even estimate the ratio if I go back further than that since there were so few climbers around then. And not only are there many more climbers today they are taking a lot more falls than we did back in the day due to the rise of sport climbing so the opportunity for a belay failure to occur is increased by this as well.

rgold wrote: If the probability went up then Joe is right. I think you mean "lots more numbers and same probability of failure = lots more occurrences." I try not to indulge in hectoring reminiscences on how everything was better BITD, but my gut impression is that Joe is fundamentally right about this. The increase in belay failures is not simply a reflection of a bigger participant base, but in fact represents a decline in the reliability of the average belayer. The social environment at the belay position, modern climbing styles involving a large number of inconsequential falls, the use of technology with potentially catastrophic gotcha's, and the abandoning of serious belay training are probably all contributing factors. In fact, given all these influences, it would be surprising if there wasn't a decline in average belay performance. It is interesting but not surprising, in our technology-obsessed culture, that people seem to look to yet more technology to fix problems that in part were brought by technology. The idea, embraced implicitly in Joe's comments, that the solution might lie in better training of belayers doesn't seem to engender a whole lot of enthusiasm.

rgold wrote: my gut impression is that Joe is fundamentally right about this.

In one sense he is. I don't think there is any question that with the influx of people to the sport, there are more lazy/incompetent people. That's the population in general.

Where I have an issue is with his insistence that the Cinch is safe or as safe as anything out there. Funny how the guys on this thread who are warning against the Cinch have all been Cinch users. Myself included. In this day with what is known about it, using it is IMO reckless.

I think a lot of the defense of the Cinch is financial. It sucks to spend money on something only to find out it's a bad idea. It's like insisting on shoes that don't fit or a relationship that's clearly doomed. You have to walk away.

To the OP, Katie. Put your Cinch down. Yep, it's like $100 but it has to be done. Your friend got lucky when he had his slip up, you've been adequately warned. It's a paperweight. No amount of hand wringing from Mr. Precut Screamers will make using it a wise decision. Look at what your friend is going through, do you want to be next?