Rate my multipitch belay setup

eli poss wrote:Holy shit, did this actually get answered without PAS flaming?! Well done, MP, we're getting better. Oh and, as always, Yer Gonna Die!

Oh snap, we did it? and he isn't gonna ded? We're gettin soft

eli poss wrote:Holy shit, did this actually get answered without PAS flaming?! Well done, MP, we're getting better. Oh and, as always, Yer Gonna Die!

What about flaming people for using an auto-block belay ( guide mode ) devices? Why hasn't that been done here?

Rick Blair wrote: What about flaming people for using an auto-block belay ( guide mode ) devices? Why hasn't that been done here?

Um, because they are very useful tools when used appropriately?

GU Climb wrote:Alright, I thank you all for the feedback! How does this look for a simpler setup?

This would work.

But what would work better?

Looks like you put an overhand knot in the sling. A figure 8 is easier to untie after being loaded BUT you're using too short amount of material to tie an 8. So, more material and you get a better knot and more options.

What side are you belaying on, and what side is your climber coming up on? An idea would be to maybe turn your clove biner over (spine on right, load strand on spine side) so you could be positioned on the right side of the master point and have your ATC directed more towards the left, allowing your climber come up on the left side. Makes the master point area a bit cleaner, easier to see and manage.

Little points, but it's about having more factors to your advantage.

GU Climb wrote:Alright, I thank you all for the feedback! How does this look for a simpler setup?

Much simpler, looks SERENE, but the issue you'll find in the real world is that your Guide-Mode ATC performs better when above your anchor in point. I'd keep your clove in the master point and clip the ATC into the "upper deck" of the anchor, placing it above your tie-in point. This will have it running smoother and allow you to escape the belay in a more efficient manner (mostly though it will run smoother).

As for the PAS, they are perfectly acceptable to use and in many cases faster than cloving in with the rope. I don't really get the Proj's hate on them, they work great for the intended use and are just an additional tool in your arsenal.

The biggest issue with your first anchor was that the carabiners your PAS was clipped into appeared to be at more than a 90* angle. Adds too much force to the system. Clipping into the master point is a much better solution.

Ryan Nevius wrote: ... consider flipping the bolt-end carabiners so that the gate screws down. They are (slightly) less likely to unscrew or loosen up in this orientation.

For the OP, it would be a good idea to lock them first. I would advise you lock your lockers everytime you use them, even when playing around, for then it becomes habit.

Ryan Hill wrote: I'd keep your clove in the master point and clip the ATC into the "upper deck" of the anchor, placing it above your tie-in point.

Don't belay off the shelf.

that's way overbuilt. just throw the rope around your neck and belay on. ;D

Michael C wrote: Don't belay off the shelf.

Care to explain why? I use the shelf and master-point interchangeably (haven't decided if I like my attachment point higher or lower than the belay device). I'll like to be more informed about what the shelf vs. master-point is appropriate for.

Adam Fleming wrote: Care to explain why? I use the shelf and master-point interchangeably (haven't decided if I like my attachment point higher or lower than the belay device). I'll like to be more informed about what the shelf vs. master-point is appropriate for.

Per David Fasulo's book on Self-Rescue "sometimes lead climbers and guides use the shelf as the attachment point while belaying a second climber to reduce congestion at the master point. However, if belaying a lead climber attaching to the master point is required."

So it's not wrong (unless belaying a leader) but I wouldn't consider it the best practice. Even in the case of this anchor, there was enough room for two lockers on the master point (belayer's clove, belay device). If anything, the 2nd could clip into the shelf prior to taking over belay, or while preparing to rappel. I look at the shelf as secondary - for redirects, or for a scenario when the master point isn't big enough for more than 2 carabiners and someone/something else needs to be clipped in to the system. I'm glad I that now know that belaying off the shelf is an option, but the master point is still my preferred belay and clip in point.

Michael C wrote: Per David Fasulo's book on Self-Rescue "sometimes lead climbers and guides use the shelf as the attachment point while belaying a second climber to reduce congestion at the master point. However, if belaying a lead climber attaching to the master point is required." So it's not "wrong" (unless belaying a leader) but I would consider it bad practice.

Seems the author is suggesting that belaying a 2nd on the shelf is totally acceptable. Thats what I do to clear the masterpoint for clove/tether for me and the 2nd, and potentially 3rd. Works well. When belaying the leader, I am attached the masterpoint. no bad karma or practice there.

Michael C wrote: "...However, if belaying a lead climber attaching to the master point is required."

I'm guessing the issue here is triaxial loading of the belayer's attachment carabiner.

If a leader takes a fall and the belayer gets pulled up, each leg of the shelf pulls towards it's respective bolt/pro. This obviously causes the belayer's attachment biner to be stressed in three different directions, while attaching oneself to the master point avoids it.

I don't feel the rest of the information you provided makes an argument against using the shelf to belay seconds from above. I agree with JaminT.

JaminT wrote: Seems the author is suggesting that belaying a 2nd on the shelf is totally acceptable

Michael C wrote: So it's not wrong (unless belaying a leader)

Agreed, and I would never suggest belaying a leader off the shelf, sorry if that was the impression given. Belaying a second from the shelf is fine though and allows for better visibility of what is happening when belaying. I typically use the master point as a clip-in point for myself and the second (and the third). Having my belay 'biner in the masterpoint causes a number of issues when things start getting crowded. Anyhow, thanks for clarifying the issue on belaying a leader.

Isn't "the shelf" above the master knot, and therefore not non-extending? So if a piece blows, you are not protected from extension forces.

If clipping the shelf is the same as clipping the master point, what's the point of the master point in the first place..

Russ Keane wrote:Isn't "the shelf" above the master knot, and therefore not non-extending?

Think about it again...It's clipped to all strands above the shelf, so if one piece blows, it's prevented from extending by the other strand(s).

Ryan Nevius wrote: Think about it again...It's clipped to all strands above the shelf, so if one piece blows, it's prevented from extending by the other strand(s).

This is the critical bit that makes me wary of using the shelf. I do it, but it's important to make certain every strand gets included when doing so, and i suspect there are newbies who wouldn't appreciate that point.

Just make sure you know how to use that ATC like a guide....if your going to guide mode.

Funny topic, you guys make it look like "rocket science" - all confused with this and that.

Climbing is simple, clip into bolts with whatever you prefer, a Locked down Biner is nice, so are slings.... I laughed out loud when somebody mentioned "escaping the Belay" ..... I thought to myself "not this again"

Carry on

Gunkiemike wrote: I don't like that the load is almost totally on the right-hand piece. Re-tie the master point so that the load is better distributed.

Lean to the left. ;)