Belaying accident and aftermath

Jake Jones wrote:It's user error. It's not the wear. It's not a used rope. It's not that the Cinch is a poorly designed death machine. The user of the device did not know its limitations and failure mode. Period. I've used a brand new 9.7 on one that was "worn" for quite a while. I regularly caught falls on it. The range on a Cinch is 9.4mm to 11mm. I have never so much as had an "oh shit" moment belaying with a Cinch- and I'm only on my second one in 5 years. It's very easy to blame the device. I've heard all the arguments. It works great until one day it doesn't- as if by some sorcery the device stops being inanimate and grows a murderous disposition. More prone to "user error"- as if that was even a quantifiable thing. Harder to lower, etc. Bullshit. Everything works the way it's intended if you use it how it's intended. Know the device, know how to properly use it the way the manufacturer tested and intended, and know its limitations. Don't depend on a device to make up for inattentiveness or any other flaw in the most important skill in climbing- belaying.

Jake, your Cinch is plotting against you, as we speak. It is conspiring to drop you and you are blissfully unaware. The Cinch is an agent of the Devil and acting like it is your friend (note: I have used a Cinch for years without problem, and agree with everything you said).

Healyje wrote: I'd very much disagree, the grigri is equally prone to user error...

And I'd very much disagree with this, the cinch is much, much more prone to user error than the gri-gri as shown by the numerous experienced climbers that suddenly have dropped someone with a cinch when apparently using the same technique that had caught someone many times previously. With the Gri-gri most belay accidents happen due to inexperience, with the cinch, this simply isn't the case.

If you drop your climber you are not a competent belayer , it really is that simple.

kennoyce wrote: And I'd very much disagree with this, the cinch is much, much more prone to user error than the gri-gri as shown by the numerous experienced climbers that suddenly have dropped someone with a cinch...

Again, the cinch is mainly used by more experienced climbers so when a cinch accident happens you can be pretty assured it's going to be by a person with some experience.

kennoyce wrote:...when apparently using the same technique that had caught someone many times previously..

This is NEVER the case. They may have attempted the 'same technique', but they clearly didn't do the same thing as when they previously held a fall or they wouldn't have dropped someone - cinches aren't random number generators, people are.

kennoyce wrote: With the Gri-gri most belay accidents happen due to inexperience, with the cinch, this simply isn't the case.

I'd guess the cause of grigri accidents is pretty evenly split between inadequate mastery and distracted behavior. With the cinch I'd shift that to like 10% inadequate mastery and 90% distracted behavior.

Greg Maschi gets it in the post above - the device is largely irrelevant, either you're competent or you're not.

Scott M. McNamara wrote: About 2,000 years ago Epictetus, a crippled, Greek slave said, “It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters.” It is still true today.

Bring on the stoicism!

A favorite of his, may be of help to OP's friend : "The will of nature may be learned from those things in which we don't distinguish from each other. For example, when our neighbor's boy breaks a cup, or the like, we are presently ready to say, "These things will happen." Be assured, then, that when your own cup likewise is broken, you ought to be affected just as when another's cup was broken. Apply this in like manner to greater things. Is the child or wife of another dead? There is no one who would not say, "This is a human accident." but if anyone's own child happens to die, it is presently, "Alas I how wretched am I!" But it should be remembered how we are affected in hearing the same thing concerning others. "

In other words, if your friends wife died, tell him that it wasn't his wife that died, but a wife died.

Yeah stoicism has it's limits.

Healyje wrote: This is NEVER the case. They may have attempted the 'same technique', but they clearly didn't do the same thing as when they previously held a fall or they wouldn't have dropped someone - cinches aren't random number generators, people are.

I'm not disagreeing with you here, as an engineer I completely understand that this is a user problem and not a device problem, the issue I have is that although we know that the belayer obviously did something different to cause them to drop the climber, there are many cases out there where they don't realize that they did something different. That to me is scary because we have belayers who think that they are doing everything correctly, but may be very close to dropping their climber every time they go climbing. As I don't use the cinch, I am unable to properly evaluate someone's techniques with a cinch and am not willing to take the risk of having them belay me with it.

Healyje wrote: Again, the cinch is mainly used by more experienced climbers so when a cinch accident happens you can be pretty assured it's going to be by a person with some experience.

can you back this statement up at all? if not its pure conjecture and saying it multiple times wont make it true.

I, on the other hand, will say all the best and most experienced climbers I have met usually use a grigri...

I would argue that the grigri, from a purely observational point of view, seems to encourage sloppy belaying technique. I could easily see how if one were to use the same technique with the Cinch, that they could get into trouble.

I also have used both devices, and oddly enough, the grigri was about the last device I learned to use. I didn't like the feeding on early models, and despite thinner ropes and improvement with the second edition, still don't feel it feeds all that well.

Prior to the grigri, I used the Cinch, and never had any issues with it. I have belayed many people with it, and my wife still uses it, and has not had problems either.

If you read through these threads carefully, some of the things people are trying to express is that there is a growing body of climbers - many of which who could be described as more "recreational" climbers. I agree with the proliferation of large social groups, music, and a general lack of training and expertise. Unfortunately, you don't really know how "good" you are at something until you fail in this case. The gym environment gives people the false sense of skill, as there are less variables than outdoor climbing. That being said, would be interesting to see how many groundfalls have actually occurred at the Movement Denver facility since opening - suspect it would startle people.

I would suggest that while there have been many on this site calling the Cinch suspect due to "early pin wear", etc, my guess is that the operator is to blame unless the device literally broke into pieces. Don't know if it was oriented wrong, threaded wrong, or the brake hand wasn't were it should be, but the ultimatums about "never being belayed with a cinch" are just plain ignorant. The device wouldn't have been certified, nor would it still be sold if it were a "death belay" device.

Lastly, as with most things that generate statistics, you should only expect these number to rise, reflecting the increasing number of climbers. The grigri, statistically, should likely have more failure insomuch as that same growing body of people buy more of them.

Jake Jones wrote: I'm usually right in line with everything you're saying. I disagree here though. Level of experience "climbing" is a general umbrella. Experience with a device that you're not familiar with is the only statistic that matters. If you've been climbing for 30 years and you haven't mastered a device that's new to you, then the 30 years climbing means nothing. Also, and not to beat a dead horse, but I've seen people that have been climbing for 6 months belay far better than some people that have been climbing for a decade, so this "experienced" climber notion with regard to belaying is little more than null and void.

I agree with you Jake, my issue is that I have no idea if someone is belaying me correctly with a cinch or not (I'm a complete noob when it comes to the cinch). This coupled with the many accidents that have occurred by self proclaimed experts with the cinch makes me very cautious about having someone belay me with one. The issue may not be that the device itself is more prone to user error, but it certainly seems more likely that someone belaying with a cinch thinks that they're doing everything right when in fact they aren't.

I think the problem with almost all the assisted-locking devices is that they are either on or off, and if they are off they offer so little resistance that the belayer is likely to lose control. The fact that the devices work as expected almost all of the time means that the belayer is even less prepared than they might otherwise be for a failure.

By now we have ample evidence that almost all these devices will in some cases fail to perform as expected, usually because of an identifiable belayer action, but in some cases for reasons that have remained unexplained although endlessly theorized about. Calling all such failures "belayer error" is promoting an empty tautology, failing to realize, as kennoyce has said, that some devices are more likely than others to cause belayer error.

Ironically, in a fully rational world, the possibility of an unexpected failure to lock would make belayers more vigilant than ever, but what seems to have happened instead is that complacency induced by excellent average performance has made at least some belayers less attentive rather than more so.

If you are using any kind of assisted locking device, I think gloves are mandatory. If something unexpected happens and your gadget doesn't lock, (and anyone who thinks this can't happen to them hasn't been paying attention to what's been going on for quite a few years now) you have a much better chance of controlling or at least slowing down a running rope if your skin isn't being burned down to the bone.

As for "experience," it is far less important than attitude. An "experienced" belayer may be nothing more than a consistently inattentive belayer who has been lucky enough not to have had an accident yet.

T Roper wrote: can you back this statement up at all? if not its pure conjecture and saying it multiple times wont make it true. I, on the other hand, will say all the best and most experienced climbers I have met usually use a grigri...

Yup, typical HJ.

I'll reitterate what RGold said here:

"By now we have ample evidence that almost all these devices will in some cases fail to perform as expected, usually because of an identifiable belayer action, but in some cases for reasons that have remained unexplained although endlessly theorized about. Calling all such failures ``belayer error'' is promoting an empty tautology, failing to realize, as kennoyce has said, that some devices are more likely than others to cause belayer error. "

My problem with the Cinch has been that of the accidents that I have heard of, the belayers were unable to identify what they did differently to cause the accident. IME, this has been less-so the case with the Grigri.

Locking issues aside, just try rappelling with a Grigri or with a Cinch, especially if you are carrying a load like a haul bag. I guarantee you will quickly see why the Grigri is easier to modulate/control while lowering. This is one of the reasons I switched, as rappelling a fixed line with a haul bag using a Cinch just sucked.

Would be nice if some of you guys actually read the OP and responded to her request from help...

The questions were....

"My question for the forum is whether anyone else has 1) been through a similar experience; 2) knows anyone else who has; and 3) has any advice or words of counsel for my friend. Please help!"

Healyje wrote: With the cinch I'd shift that to like 10% inadequate mastery and 90% distracted behavior.

You have nothing to back that number up... I at least have multiple personal accounts that demonstrated otherwise. The Cinch is very unforgiving of ANY, however slight, interference against the locking mechanism and provides virtually no friction if it fails to lock, and I believe this has left many otherwise competent belayers scratching their heads.

One of the most dangerous condition for a Cinch is a climber falling at the clipped protection point with a relatively tight belay. This is made worse if this all happens close to the ground. You can be watching the climber very closely, but the rope will start running thru the device immediately from the fall. A longer fall or a more lackadaisical belay (extra slack) ironically will help the device lock.

To the OP, what did you expect Trango to tell you, that they designed a pretty shitty belay device? I'd tell your friend that anyone who's climbed long enough will make a mistake, so for fuck sake don't use a Cinch again.

Oh wow, everyone...thank you so much for your responses. I will share with my friend. And post more specific responses soon. You guys are awesome!

T Roper wrote: can you back this statement up at all? if not its pure conjecture and saying it multiple times wont make it true. I, on the other hand, will say all the best and most experienced climbers I have met usually use a grigri...

Why, yes it's pure conjecture, but how many grigris do you suppose they sell for every cinch that gets sold? 50:1? 500:1? Again, conjecture, but I bet it's closer to 5000:1 or more and that's why almost everyone with an autoblocker you see - newb and experienced climbers alike - have grigris. And all the cinch users I know of had a grigri before they decided to give the cinch a whirl. I'd bet it's a really small number of cinch sales that go do first time buyers.

rgold wrote:I think the problem with almost all the assisted-locking devices is that they are either on or off, and if they are off they offer so little resistance that the belayer is likely to lose control. The fact that the devices work as expected almost all of the time means that the belayer is even less prepared than they might otherwise be for a failure. By now we have ample evidence that almost all these devices will in some cases fail to perform as expected, usually because of an identifiable belayer action, but in some cases for reasons that have remained unexplained although endlessly theorized about.

Exactly right.

rgold wrote:Calling all such failures "belayer error" is promoting an empty tautology, failing to realize, as kennoyce has said, that some devices are more likely than others to cause belayer error.

Exactly wrong. Under no circumstance is an autoblocking device not locking an acceptable cause for a belayer failing to prevent the rope from running through the device. Being able to prevent such an occurrence is fundamental to using the device at all. Or, to quote Petzl (and it's no different for the cinch):

-------------------------------
Petzl: We place great emphasis on the need to hold the brake side of the rope. But why?

The term "belay device with assisted braking," which describes the GRIGRI, indicates that it is not an autolocking device. In fact, you may notice that if you slide your rope slowly through the device (especially for small diameter rope), it does not necessarily lock, and the rope slides freely through it. It's when you pull the brake side of the rope that the cam rotates to brake the rope.
-------------------------------

rgold wrote:Ironically, in a fully rational world, the possibility of an unexpected failure to lock would make belayers more vigilant than ever, but what seems to have happened instead is that complacency induced by excellent average performance has made at least some belayers less attentive rather than more so.

This, in a nutshell - that such devices do lock 99% of the time - is exactly why they tend to breed bad belaying habits including a reliance on the device locking, lack management of the brake hand, and a tendency towards distracted behaviors due to the faux 'reliability' of the devce. At almost no point in the 'training' of the average new climber with a grigri is it really every crystal clear to them that the device can and will fail to lock and that 100% of the time they need to belay in a way that's
that will compensate for that 1% failure. My guess is less than 5% of grigri users are 100% vigilant against a failure of the device to lock and that means who ends up dropping someone is pretty much as random the devices themselves failing to lock.

rgold wrote:If you are using any kind of assisted locking device, I think gloves are mandatory.

Probably would prevent a lot of burns, but I doubt it would change the dropping outcomes much at all. They also aren't necessary if you know what you're doing and paying attention.

rgold wrote:As for "experience," it is far less important than attitude. An "experienced" belayer may be nothing more than a consistently inattentive belayer who has been lucky enough not to have had an accident yet.

That's hard to argue with; the propensity of a person towards distracted behaviors while belaying is way more the issue once a baseline of competence is reached.

A friend of mine dropped another friend on a Cinch from about 30 feet up to within 5 or 6 feet of the ground. Luckily no injuries were involved. As far as I can tell, he felt bad about it to a normal and healthy extent and was very proactive about posting it online, apologizing, seeking input on other people's experiences with the device, etc..

Maybe the belayer in the OP is way too far to one side of the distribution in terms of feeling too much embarrassment, guilt, empathy, etc, but the alternative on the other side of the distribution (not giving a shit at all) is way more dangerous to any future partners.

Cinches are garbage, they don't lock reliably (or ar all) after they get worn out. A friend of mine who's a guide wore his out to the point it didn't lock at all on its own after around 100 climbing days. Having said that your friend still should have been able to catch the fall assuming he was using proper technique.

Katie, was your friend belaying a lead climb or a toprope? It strikes me that having a climber hit a ledge could be entirely out of your friend's control (depending on a lot of variables). Was there really too much rope out? Did rope slip through the device? Or was there just a ledge in a bad spot, and the climber happened to hit it? I know of climbs in my area that are bolted in such a way that ledges could be hit even on the most skillfully belayed lead attempts.

Greg Maschi wrote:No question user error, belay devices are easy to blame ,sounds like the belayer doesn't have the "gumption " required for belaying let alone climbing.

Wow!!! Aren't you the almighty of climbing safety. I've known a lot of climbers with lots of experience and are safe that have maded mistakes over the years. Accidents do happen, even to the very safe, over the course of a long climbing career. Hopefully none are disastrous.

After the description of the belayer in question and his feelings and actions in the aftermath, it's pretty obvious that he takes this very seriously.

For you to make such a harsh judgement, especially when you don't know the details of the incedent is pure ignorance. You should take your holier than thou shit and pronounce yourself the God of belays. Maybe you could start your own little church.

Tell your friend to turn this experience into the best thing that ever happened for him.

Your friend can learn to be the best damn belayer on the planet - the vast majority of people at the crag have not seen a real life climbing accident and consequently are not as aware of just how quickly and how badly a fun day at the crag can go wrong. Your friend can use this experience to spread the good word and prevent other people from making the same mistake.

Grigri, cinch, ATC, munter or whatever - we as climbers need to know the equipment we're working with. The world has come a long ways since the days of pitons, snargs and "the leader must not fall". Many people are learning how to climb in a cushioned world with "auto-locking" devices, super strong, elastic nylon ropes, quick-draws (some crags with fixed-draws!), nuts tightened on hangers rotated in the correct direction to minimize the risk of a draw un-clipping, bolted anchors with rap rings or even lowering biners, routes cleaned of (most) death blocks, and so much more. In this cushioned day and age, it's easy to be complacent, but your friend knows that these cushions don't cover 100% of the dangers of climbing, and with that knowledge he can help improve the safety of himself and all those around him.

Maybe he can host a mega-fun belaying competitions at the local gym.

Maybe he can think of clever ways and fun games for people who just met to test each others' belaying skills before climbing without coming off as rude/patronizing. Heck, even just knowing your friend's belaying game might be a good sign that somebody takes belaying seriously.

This experience opens up a tremendous opportunity for your friend. I hope he seizes it. Give him a hug for me, and tell him to get his butt back outside! We need him!